Dak Watch Thread...

GShock

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
5,146
It’s simple, sign the crippling four year deal and suck it up.

There’s nowhere to hide QB money, sorry, Stephen.

It will take two years to figure out whether we have a champion or not.
I want to push back a bit on the concept of the crippling contract. We've had Dak for 4 years on a cheap rookie deal. We have not been major players in FA for any of those years. We wait for the first tide to pass, then make market-appropriate deals for the Cobbs and the Quinns and the Flemings. I think there are good reasons to argue that this is the correct approach, regardless. At the same time, I can't remember the last guy that we drafted and actually wanted to keep, but couldn't because of cap reasons. It would have been nice to win while we had the discount, but we failed, the bill is due, and paying it will not prevent us from doing anything we would have wanted to do anyway.

And yes, it may take years (even more than 2) to figure out whether we have a champion, but I'm genuinely curious what you would prefer, and why you think an alternate approach would be successful. Franchise him? Trade multiple #1s and 2s to move up high enough in the first round to draft one of the top 2 QBs? Hope that a good QB falls to later in the first and have him wait a year behind a franchised Dak? Hope to hit the lottery later in the draft?
 

Iamtdg

One-armed Knife Sharpener
Staff member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
71,734
This is a damn good thread. He talks about Dak (it's the length of the contract not money) that is causing the delay. But, it also talks about the team having Quinn higher on their priority list than Byron Jones. It's worth the read.

 

ravidubey

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
11,292
I want to push back a bit on the concept of the crippling contract. We've had Dak for 4 years on a cheap rookie deal. We have not been major players in FA for any of those years. We wait for the first tide to pass, then make market-appropriate deals for the Cobbs and the Quinns and the Flemings. I think there are good reasons to argue that this is the correct approach, regardless. At the same time, I can't remember the last guy that we drafted and actually wanted to keep, but couldn't because of cap reasons. It would have been nice to win while we had the discount, but we failed, the bill is due, and paying it will not prevent us from doing anything we would have wanted to do anyway.

And yes, it may take years (even more than 2) to figure out whether we have a champion, but I'm genuinely curious what you would prefer, and why you think an alternate approach would be successful. Franchise him? Trade multiple #1s and 2s to move up high enough in the first round to draft one of the top 2 QBs? Hope that a good QB falls to later in the first and have him wait a year behind a franchised Dak? Hope to hit the lottery later in the draft?
You could franchise him intending to sign the crippling deal after 2021, but who knows how the new CBA will affect QB contracts. I can’t imagine they will be cheaper.

Franchising gives you no cap flexibility this year as well, and begins a rift with a guy you are supposedly “All in” on.

It does protect you if you feel Dak is false and ready to implode, but I think Dallas loves Dak and hates the idea of post CBA inflation costing them quite a bit more.

So Stephen needs to cave and just sign the four year deal like everyone else already has.

He has no negotiating power right now.
 

Cowboysrock55

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
30,957
You could franchise him intending to sign the crippling deal after 2021, but who knows how the new CBA will affect QB contracts. I can’t imagine they will be cheaper.

Franchising gives you no cap flexibility this year as well, and begins a rift with a guy you are supposedly “All in” on.

It does protect you if you feel Dak is false and ready to implode, but I think Dallas loves Dak and hates the idea of post CBA inflation costing them quite a bit more.

So Stephen needs to cave and just sign the four year deal like everyone else already has.

He has no negotiating power right now.
If the CBA makes QB contracts go up then its not crippling at all? Correct? It's simple math.
 

Cowboysrock55

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
30,957
The franchose tag is Stephen's only leverage in the deal. He has to threaten it. I won't be surprised if we franchise him and then work a deal out. But we better get Cooper done then because he will get stolen otherwise.
 

Iamtdg

One-armed Knife Sharpener
Staff member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
71,734
The franchose tag is Stephen's only leverage in the deal. He has to threaten it. I won't be surprised if we franchise him and then work a deal out. But we better get Cooper done then because he will get stolen otherwise.
I'm good with using the non-exclusive tag on Cooper. Teams could outbid us but they would have to give up two 1s to make it happen. Nobody is going to do that.
 

L.T. Fan

I'm Easy If You Are
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
19,145
The franchose tag is Stephen's only leverage in the deal. He has to threaten it. I won't be surprised if we franchise him and then work a deal out. But we better get Cooper done then because he will get stolen otherwise.
That is exactly what I proposed.
 

Cowboysrock55

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
30,957
I'm good with using the non-exclusive tag on Cooper. Teams could outbid us but they would have to give up two 1s to make it happen. Nobody is going to do that.
Yeah I'm ok franchising Cooper. I'd rather sign him to an extension but I don't think he is the type of guy to throw a fit. I think he'd play his ass off and collect a nice paycheck for the year. He isn't a very outspoken guy so I think he'd be happy just to stay here, be productive and make some money. Just would be nice to have him under contract and not have to face the same issues again next offseason.
 

Stasheroo

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 17, 2020
Messages
147
Yeah I'm ok franchising Cooper. I'd rather sign him to an extension but I don't think he is the type of guy to throw a fit. I think he'd play his ass off and collect a nice paycheck for the year. He isn't a very outspoken guy so I think he'd be happy just to stay here, be productive and make some money. Just would be nice to have him under contract and not have to face the same issues again next offseason.
They were stuck paying Cooper the moment they traded for him. All leverage immediately shifted to him and his agent.

I think several teams made similar mistakes recently. The Texans in trading those 1st round picks for Laremy Tunsil, and then the Rams by trading two for Jalen Ramsey. When that happens, players and agents know that teams have to give them essentially whatever they want and can't possibly let them walk after making that initial draft investment.

A careless practice that will likely cost some of them their jobs. Although of course not the GM that owns the team.
 

Stasheroo

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 17, 2020
Messages
147
Or drafting a RB 4th.
Yep.

And I can't remember the last Super Bowl Champion that got there with the league's top-paid running back. It does not appear to be a winning strategy in the modern era.

But we seem to adhere to the pattern of making sure that we 'pay our triplets', whether their success lives up to the hype or not.
 

deadrise

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 27, 2017
Messages
847
Yep.

And I can't remember the last Super Bowl Champion that got there with the league's top-paid running back. It does not appear to be a winning strategy in the modern era.

But we seem to adhere to the pattern of making sure that we 'pay our triplets', whether their success lives up to the hype or not.
The problem is Jason Garrett's head was not in the modern era. He was still stuck back in the time of the triplets.
 

ravidubey

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
11,292
If the CBA makes QB contracts go up then its not crippling at all? Correct? It's simple math.
QB contracts are always your biggest, crippling contract.

We want to sign him four years at the current rate rather than a cheaper but inflexible single year followed by four years at a higher rate.

That’s your simple math
 

Sheik

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 8, 2013
Messages
1,649
$33mil per turned down? Fucking travesty. The dude is maybe worth $25-$27mil per. Steve McNair-lite wants north of $33mil per. That’s probably the funniest thing I’ve heard in a while.

What’s Mahomes worth? $55mil per?
 

fortsbest

Active member
Joined
Apr 8, 2013
Messages
3,356
And he doesn't mention that a big part of that is Dak has a nasty habit that many of his throws are right at or just behind the WR. He's not the best at leading a WR to the open spot or hitting them in stride for YAC.
 

L.T. Fan

I'm Easy If You Are
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
19,145
Tells me that the receivers are pretty much covered when they make the catch . Not really a good stat. YAC usually means receivers are open with room to run. Dallas receivers need to get the ball quicker. DAK waits too long to throw.
 

deadrise

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 27, 2017
Messages
847
I'm sure Jason Witten's 4-yard square-outs and getting tackled immediately don't help the YAC stats.
 

pdom

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
28,146
Tells me that the receivers are pretty much covered when they make the catch . Not really a good stat. YAC usually means receivers are open with room to run. Dallas receivers need to get the ball quicker. DAK waits too long to throw.
Dak Prescott was seventh-longest in the league in Time to Throw. He was 0.37 seconds behind the fastest.

 

Cowboysrock55

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
30,957
Dak Prescott was seventh-longest in the league in Time to Throw. He was 0.37 seconds behind the fastest.

If he was taking sacks I would care. But Dak threw the ball further oer catch than almost any other QB. We had very few quick desined throws. Also why our YAC was low. Dak didn't get the 3 yard reciever screens that go for 60 yards.
 

L.T. Fan

I'm Easy If You Are
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
19,145
If he was taking sacks I would care. But Dak threw the ball further oer catch than almost any other QB. We had very few quick desined throws. Also why our YAC was low. Dak didn't get the 3 yard reciever screens that go for 60 yards.
Doesn’t address YAC. Doesn’t matter how far it was thrown the reciever was downed almost immediately. He has always had a slow read and release. He is getting better but he still takes too long waiting for the reciever to get separation rather than throwing to where the receiver is going.
 

Cowboysrock55

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
30,957
Doesn’t address YAC. Doesn’t matter how far it was thrown the reciever was downed almost immediately. He has always had a slow read and release. He is getting better but he still takes too long waiting for the reciever to get separation rather than throwing to where the receiver is going.
Ugh but it does. Quick short designed throws are where teams get all there YAC. We threw less than anybody else in the NFL. That's why the air yards per pass were so high for Dak compared to other QBs. Dak almost never got to throw those quick easy passes. No offense but if Dak was holding the ball "too long" he would have had more than the 23 sacks or so he took on the year.
 

L.T. Fan

I'm Easy If You Are
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
19,145
Ugh but it does. Quick short designed throws are where teams get all there YAC. We threw less than anybody else in the NFL. That's why the air yards per pass were so high for Dak compared to other QBs. Dak almost never got to throw those quick easy passes. No offense but if Dak was holding the ball "too long" he would have had more than the 23 sacks or so he took on the year.
The other side of the coin is that receivers are tackled almost immediately after the catch.
 

Cowboysrock55

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
30,957
The other side of the coin is that receivers are tackled almost immediately after the catch.
Yeah when you throw downfield that's going to happen a lot more. When you run a lot of comeback routes, that's going to happen. When you have the slowest and worst running TE in the league that's going to happen. When Zeke runs a route and is tackled almost immediately every time that's going to happen.
 

L.T. Fan

I'm Easy If You Are
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
19,145
Yeah when you throw downfield that's going to happen a lot more. When you run a lot of comeback routes, that's going to happen. When you have the slowest and worst running TE in the league that's going to happen. When Zeke runs a route and is tackled almost immediately every time that's going to happen.
:picard
 

L.T. Fan

I'm Easy If You Are
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
19,145
Well that was a childish response. Not sure I've ever seen anyone try to blame the QB for an offense having no YAC.
Do you ever recall serving up that response ? I gave my reasons. It might also be an indication that the reciever has reached the end of his route and is immobile and waiting for the throw opposed to hitting a reciever that is running his route and the ball is delivered while the receiver is moving.
 
Last edited:

pdom

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
28,146
If he was taking sacks I would care. But Dak threw the ball further oer catch than almost any other QB. We had very few quick desined throws. Also why our YAC was low. Dak didn't get the 3 yard reciever screens that go for 60 yards.
Despite seventh-lowest YAC, Dak Prescott was 4th highest in Yards-per-Completion, same 12.6 as Patrick Mahomes.

 

Cowboysrock55

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
30,957
Do you ever recall serving up that response ? I gave my reasons. It might also be an indication that the reciever has reached the end of his route and is immobile and waiting for the throw opposed to hitting a reciever that is running his route and the ball is delivered while the receiver is moving.
Nope. Don't recall giving you that response.
 

ravidubey

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
11,292
Despite seventh-lowest YAC, Dak Prescott was 4th highest in Yards-per-Completion, same 12.6 as Patrick Mahomes.

Behind juggernauts Tannehil, Winston, and Stafford.

Dak had a good statistical year and has as expected improved since his rookie season. And his team helped him. A lot.

Mark Rypien led all QBs in this stat in 1991 with 14.3 Y/C.

Dude disappeared when his team eroded around him because he wasn’t the difference-maker that his OL, WRs, and RBs were.

All I know is Dak’s better than average and needs to improve his accuracy and aggressiveness.
 

ravidubey

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
11,292
Meaning Dallas has no plan but to unleash it’s QB.

There is no commitment to powerful players up front on the defensive side of the ball, just the edge players and CBs.

Dak still takes what the defense gives him. When he has the total supporting cast, he’s productive. I think many QBs would be productive with Dallas’ OL, Zeke, and Cooper at full strength.
 

Iamtdg

One-armed Knife Sharpener
Staff member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
71,734
Meaning Dallas has no plan but to unleash it’s QB.

There is no commitment to powerful players up front on the defensive side of the ball, just the edge players and CBs.
You do realize Garrett and Marinelli aren’t with the team anymore, right? Let’s not use the old mantras and start forming new ones to gripe about. This is a new day with the team. We have no idea what this staff will be committed to or not.
 

deadrise

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 27, 2017
Messages
847
Ugh but it does. Quick short designed throws are where teams get all there YAC. We threw less than anybody else in the NFL. That's why the air yards per pass were so high for Dak compared to other QBs. Dak almost never got to throw those quick easy passes. No offense but if Dak was holding the ball "too long" he would have had more than the 23 sacks or so he took on the year.
Agree. Garrett was allergic to rub routes, shallow crossing patterns, quick slants. That kind of scheme generates YAC. Red Pube's scheme run down the field for 12 yards and turn around or find an open spot in the zone.
 
Top Bottom