2023 Draft Weekend Chatter Thread...

[Smitty]

Yeah, I mean, I don’t think we did terrible but I think there is a bit of homerism EVEN ON THIS BOARD in regards to the quality of our draft.

As that article makes clear, we obviously targeted and reached for need, despite all our talk about how we filled all our needs in FA and it would allow us to go BPA in the draft.

I think TO A DEGREE need lined up with value with the Mazi Smith pick, because whatever, he’s ranked 30th and we picked 26th, the ratings are fluid, he’s in the right tier.

But no way did we stick to our board with the 2nd-3rd-4th.

We pieced together a puzzle of the best players we were likely to get at position of need in those rounds. Like, if we felt a good TE would have been available in the third, we might have gone that route, but we didn’t, so we had to get one in the second. And it was never going to be any other outcome than coming out of the draft with a “starting caliber” TE despite having guys who can play in Ferguson and Hendershot.

We do this every year. We always draft for need. What was the last premium pick that wasn’t an express need? CD Lamb?

 

[Rev]

Good, fair article.

But I've always wondered this:



I get that you might discuss a big faller who you didn't expect to be there, and you have to consider trades, but why isn't all this already decided? And it predates social media so I don't think that's it.

My impression is Jerry just loves the thrill of it, the adrenaline of deciding in that last minute or two. Or do other teams actually do it the same way.

They probably didn't let Jerry in on all of the scouting until just then. Now he has to put in his .02

I kid. Perhaps it was 2 opinions that couldn't be moved so decided to wait and see if it was even a choice.

 

[Cowboysrock55]

But no way did we stick to our board with the 2nd-3rd-4th.

To be fair Fehoko was far from a need pick. I disagree about the player but he clearly had some massive fans including Quinn.

I do think we reached for need in the second. I can't pretend that I know where Schoon was ranked. He definitely fits what they were telling us before the draft which is that we want both a great blocker and a pass catcher. I think they are projecting on the pass catching part because of athletic testing but that's par for the course with TEs. It's not always the best college pass catchers at TE who turn into the best pass catchers in the NFL.

I didn't like the Overshown pick either. I wasn't a big fan of his. I feel like I've just seen this one before. Safety, plays LBer, has the traits but maybe not the mental part of diagnosing and getting through traffic. I don't know if he was a need pick, I think he was more of a pet cat/traits guy.

I don't know who is overrating our draft. Most fans were not a fan of this draft.

I will defend the Mazi pick though. I've been a big fan of his for awhile. I think fans and the media just had some guys overrated like Nolan Smith and Myles Murphy. Avila and Torrence too. I don't thinknit was just the Cowboys, I don't think teams were nearly as high on those guys as we were. But we don't know medical and personality the way teams do.

 

[Genghis Khan]

Good, fair article.

But I've always wondered this:



I get that you might discuss a big faller who you didn't expect to be there, and you have to consider trades, but why isn't all this already decided? And it predates social media so I don't think that's it.

My impression is Jerry just loves the thrill of it, the adrenaline of deciding in that last minute or two. Or do other teams actually do it the same way.

I'd guess it's pretty common and Kempsky is just a retard wannabe failed troll as usual. Very few teams make their picks immediately. Usually they take all or most of their time. Does he think they're playing twister or something? They are debating between a few guys and possible trades, etc. Why wouldn't you take all the time given to you? You don't get any points for brevity.

I think a lot of people think there's hard and fast rankings for these guys, but when you really think about it, numerical rankings don't even make sense, although everyone does it.

Obviously Mazi is a better prospect than say, Scott. But is he better than for example Bergeron? What would that even mean? Both are very good prospects but at different positions. Most of these rankings between similar talents are pretty arbitrary. It makes way more sense to group similar players in tiers.

And in that sense, then why wouldn't you debate the merits of available players when you're on the clock for as long as you can? You might have guessed certain players would be there but you're never really sure (for example, when we took Taco I think they hoped some of the other DEs they liked would be there but it turned out they weren't). And even if they guessed both these players would be there, they probably thought they'd be choosing between 5 or 6 guys but now there's two.

It's such a dumb criticism that Kemspki is only making because he's trying to dunk on the cowboys. And yet Dallas has drafted better than the eagles so maybe if the eagles don't operate this way they should.

Kempskee is a fucking clown.

 

[Simpleton]

The Mazi and Vaughn picks really elevated the draft for me. Mazi because he represents an organizational shift in thinking, and is also arguably the final puzzle piece to what could very well be the best defense in the league, and Vaughn because I just think he could be a tremendous weapon to find that late in the draft for what I expect this offense to look like.

The rest of the picks I'm lukewarm on to varying degrees. Schoonmaker has been discussed ad nauseum, I like Overshown and Fehoko but they're Quinn-dependent picks in terms of fitting a very specific role in his scheme, Richards was solid, and the rest are whatever.

I do think Overshown has a lot of potential to be something similar to Deion Jones in Quinn's scheme but again, that's completely reliant on Quinn's specific vision becoming reality, if Quinn leaves next year we're probably left with a rotational LB/ST'er.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Geng, I understand and appreciate your Eagles hate, but most of the debate you're talking about should already have taken place, right? That's where the concept of a mock draft came from, teams running through all the scenarios in advance so they don't make a dumb decision under the pressure of the clock.

To me it should be pretty simple... when your turn comes up, you look at your best remaining - probably adjusted slightly for need - and confirm the decision with everyone and call it in. That's aside from any trades you might want to entertain. If you'd like to trade down I get waiting to see if you can get a better deal.

 

[Cowboysrock55]

Geng, I understand and appreciate your Eagles hate, but most of the debate you're talking about should already have taken place, right? That's where the concept of a mock draft came from, teams running through all the scenarios in advance so they don't make a dumb decision under the pressure of the clock.

To me it should be pretty simple... when your turn comes up, you look at your best remaining - probably adjusted slightly for need - and confirm the decision with everyone and call it in. That's aside from any trades you might want to entertain. If you'd like to trade down I get waiting to see if you can get a better deal.

I think they knew what they were doing. But it's not just those two guys that impact their draft. There were also trades on the table. So yeah, you're going to discuss it. I doubt that the discussion was really that heated. They had a pretty good idea what they were doing at that point. Especially when you don't really know what will happen with those top 25 picks. Maybe with Mazi being 14 on their board they weren't sure he would make it to 26.

 

[Genghis Khan]

Geng, I understand and appreciate your Eagles hate, but most of the debate you're talking about should already have taken place, right? That's where the concept of a mock draft came from, teams running through all the scenarios in advance so they don't make a dumb decision under the pressure of the clock.

To me it should be pretty simple... when your turn comes up, you look at your best remaining - probably adjusted slightly for need - and confirm the decision with everyone and call it in. That's aside from any trades you might want to entertain. If you'd like to trade down I get waiting to see if you can get a better deal.

I'm sure all of that did take place. There's still no reason not to debate it as long as you have time left.

Which is what I'd assume pretty much every team does, considering it's actually pretty rare for a team to send their pick in quickly. It's why the first round takes forever every year. What are other teams doing if not debating? Hell, you even see it in the top five when there are only a couple players gone and usually you have a really good idea of who will be taken in front of you.

It's a dumb criticism. It's not like they were in the war room going, wait who is Mazi Smith again?

There are a hundred different permutations of how it could play out. I'd far rather they double and triple check their opinions than just run up the card immediately because they've debated it before, just so they can impress a retard like Jimmy fucking kemskii.

 

[boozeman]

Good, fair article.

But I've always wondered this:



I get that you might discuss a big faller who you didn't expect to be there, and you have to consider trades, but why isn't all this already decided? And it predates social media so I don't think that's it.

My impression is Jerry just loves the thrill of it, the adrenaline of deciding in that last minute or two. Or do other teams actually do it the same way.

I thought the article was fair as well. As for the down to the wire thing, a lot of that was due to KC and someone else trying to move up.

 

[ravidubey]

It's OK to be critical of

• "Reaching" for Mazi in the 1st
• Panic-Grabbing the last Mohican at TE in the 2nd
• Reaching for Overshown/Dan Quinn dependency in the 3rd
• Weird trade up for Scott at the top of the 6th

The rest of the draft is kind of hard to argue with, and it's also OK for the Cowboys to say fuck off about the parts folks don't agree with.

We panic-grabbed the "Last Mohican" at OL in 2013. It got us a freaking beast in Frederick who were it not for a freak disease likely ends his career in the ROH.

We reached for Sam Williams a full round early in 2022. 16 pressures, 4 sacks, and 10 TFL later nobody gives a shit.

Frankly, the Cowboys have earned a certain benefit of a doubt drafting these last ten years. Enough to take what any critic says with a grain of salt. Fuck 'em.

I'm very appreciative of how well the scouts and coaches communicate on this team. For that I credit McClay, McCarthy, and Quinn. It's not easy to make happen.

 

[Simpleton]

It's OK to be critical of

• "Reaching" for Mazi in the 1st
• Panic-Grabbing the last Mohican at TE in the 2nd
• Reaching for Overshown/Dan Quinn dependency in the 3rd
• Weird trade up for Scott at the top of the 6th

The rest of the draft is kind of hard to argue with, and it's also OK for the Cowboys to say fuck off about the parts folks don't agree with.

We panic-grabbed the "Last Mohican" at OL in 2013. It got us a freaking beast in Frederick who were it not for a freak disease likely ends his career in the ROH.

We reached for Sam Williams a full round early in 2022. 16 pressures, 4 sacks, and 10 TFL later nobody gives a shit.

Frankly, the Cowboys have earned a certain benefit of a doubt drafting these last ten years. Enough to take what any critic says with a grain of salt. Fuck 'em.

I'm very appreciative of how well the scouts and coaches communicate on this team. For that I credit McClay, McCarthy, and Quinn. It's not easy to make happen.

I generally agree although I don't think Mazi or Overshown were reaches, maybe you could argue they were by about 10 slots or so but ultimately I don't think those are reaches, particularly not around pick 100.

And supposedly KC was trying to trade up with us for Mazi so there you go.

 

[Cowboysrock55]

I generally agree although I don't think Mazi or Overshown were reaches, maybe you could argue they were by about 10 slots or so but ultimately I don't think those are reaches, particularly not around pick 100.

And supposedly KC was trying to trade up with us for Mazi so there you go.

Was Mazi a reach on the media's board, probably. But people talk about this stuff like their is a consensus board that all NFL teams agree on. I think there is far more variation to it that some people realize. A guy could be a third round player on one teams board and a first round player on another teams board. So if other teams had Mazi in their top 26 does that still make him a reach? If the Chiefs were willing to take him at 26, does that still make him a reach? The Cowboys couldn't get him later and they had him ranked 13 or 14 on their board. In no way does that sound like a reach to me regardless of the "consensus" board according to the media.

 

[shoop]

Was Mazi a reach on the media's board, probably. But people talk about this stuff like their is a consensus board that all NFL teams agree on. I think there is far more variation to it that some people realize. A guy could be a third round player on one teams board and a first round player on another teams board. So if other teams had Mazi in their top 26 does that still make him a reach? If the Chiefs were willing to take him at 26, does that still make him a reach? The Cowboys couldn't get him later and they had him ranked 13 or 14 on their board. In no way does that sound like a reach to me regardless of the "consensus" board according to the media.

Mazi was looking like late 2nd early third early in the draft process. By the day of the draft he was projecting between pick 30-40. I have zero issues taking that person at 26. Especially at a position we have ignored for decades.

 

[ravidubey]

I generally agree although I don't think Mazi or Overshown were reaches, maybe you could argue they were by about 10 slots or so but ultimately I don't think those are reaches, particularly not around pick 100.

And supposedly KC was trying to trade up with us for Mazi so there you go.

Exactly, hence my use of quotes.

Fuck someone calling it a reach, the Cowboys found players that fit their needs exactly.

 

[Simpleton]

Mazi was looking like late 2nd early third early in the draft process. By the day of the draft he was projecting between pick 30-40. I have zero issues taking that person at 26. Especially at a position we have ignored for decades.

Yea I don't think he was even a reach based on consensus media boards. He was more or less in the 30-40 range on the big boards of all the prominent draft pundits, and like I said earlier, taking a guy at 26 who is generally ranked around 35 or whatever is irrelevant.

Hell, most of these guys had Tyler Smith ranked around 50 or so last year.

 

[Cowboysrock55]

Mazi was looking like late 2nd early third early in the draft process. By the day of the draft he was projecting between pick 30-40.

I don't really remember this. Mazi was always a pretty well known prospect ever since he ranked like number 1 on the freaks list. I think some had bumped him down to an early second just because "you don't take NT's in the first round" which of course isn't true. Hell a NT went to the Eagles in the top 15 last year. I don't think anyone can reasonably call him a reach. Had we taken him at 13 or 14, ok I get it.

Of course I think most of the NFL was pretty down on Nolan Smith. But the media will tell you it was a massive steal. I remember when he was a late first/early second until the combine and suddenly he was a better prospect.

 

[Simpleton]

I don't really remember this. Mazi was always a pretty well known prospect ever since he ranked like number 1 on the freaks list. I think some had bumped him down to an early second just because "you don't take NT's in the first round" which of course isn't true. Hell a NT went to the Eagles in the top 15 last year. I don't think anyone can reasonably call him a reach. Had we taken him at 13 or 14, ok I get it.

Of course I think most of the NFL was pretty down on Nolan Smith. But the media will tell you it was a massive steal. I remember when he was a late first/early second until the combine and suddenly he was a better prospect.

I'm not a huge fan of Smith either, if he was the pick I wouldn't have minded it since he does have rare explosiveness/athleticism for the position but there are some legit concerns there. His frame looks maxed out and the majority of his production in college came from hustle/effort plays, not as a result of refined pass rush technique, or even any sort of traditional pass rush rhythm in general.

A lot of it was chasing guys down who were forced out of the pocket and such, and of course you have to be concerned about his ability to hold up vs. the run.

 

[ravidubey]

I'm not a huge fan of Smith either, if he was the pick I wouldn't have minded it since he does have rare explosiveness/athleticism for the position but there are some legit concerns there. His frame looks maxed out and the majority of his production in college came from hustle/effort plays, not as a result of refined pass rush technique, or even any sort of traditional pass rush rhythm in general.

A lot of it was chasing guys down who were forced out of the pocket and such, and of course you have to be concerned about his ability to hold up vs. the run.

And through no fault of his own, his college production benefitted greatly from having an all-timer college DL in front of him.

In the pros, there isn't the same talent gap between Philly's DL and opposing OL's as there is between Georgia's DL and corresponding opposing OL's.

Basically the defense will need Smith's help more in the pros than they did at Georgia, and he'll be personally facing much tougher competition.

 

[p1_]

15 spots seems high to me.

 

[p1_]