'Duck Dynasty': Phil Robertson anti-gay sermon surfaces

[skidadl]

Yeah, the degree of sin thing just doesn't add up. Of course there are degrees of sin. Saying that the bible teaches that there aren't degrees is incorrect. I agree that the wage for sin is always the same - death. But that in no way indicates that God sees all sin in the same light. I don't believe that you will find scriptural evidence of that. Jesus stated that if you have sinned in your heart then you have already sinned. He encompassed even that into what is sinnful but in No way said that the degrees of sin are the same. I'd be happy to change my view or hash out what scriptures prove just for the fun of the discussion.

Aside from that, it is clear that some sins are far more destructive than others. Some sins cause a great deal of pain to the sinner and others involved. Other sins are mostly destructive to the sinner only.

 

[skidadl]

Khalid, I've gotta question for you that I've always wondered. Why in the world would one follow a teaching of the church rather than searching scripture as the final authority?

 

[Kbrown]

Khalid, I've gotta question for you that I've always wondered. Why in the world would one follow a teaching of the church rather than searching scripture as the final authority?

Because nothing the Church teaches contradicts Scripture. Scripture, tradition and reason work cohesively, without any one of them missing from the equation. Some of Church teaching isn't explicitly mentioned, but all of it is at least implicitly there. The concept of the Trinity isn't explicitly in the Bible, and how many Christians believe it? How did Christians get by in the many years between Jesus' Ascension and the Catholic Church's decision as to which books should make up the Bible?

 

[Cotton]

I don't believe in the Bible.

And, in other news, Thorn is still a sinner.

 

[E_D_Guapo]

I do find humorous the other implication that, although atheists basically hold that the vast majority of humans in history have been fundamentally wrong about the nature of existence(while the atheist is obviously correct), religious believers are the arrogant ones for daring to have a set of convictions that diverges from that of other religious believers.

That's why I don't consider myself an atheist. I can't claim to "know" for sure that there is no God any more than someone can claim to "know" for sure that there is. There is a difference between believing something and knowing it. That's why I find it humorous when people of faith claim they "know" they're right. Wrong. You believe it, you don't know it. You might be convinced by your strong belief that it is fact, but it's still just faith-based belief.

 

[Cotton]

That's why I don't consider myself an atheist. I can't claim to "know" for sure that there is no God any more than someone can claim to "know" for sure that there is. There is a difference between believing something and knowing it. That's why I find it humorous when people of faith claim they "know" they're right. Wrong. You believe it, you don't know it. You might be convinced by your strong belief that it is fact, but it's still just faith-based belief.

 

[skidadl]

Because nothing the Church teaches contradicts Scripture. Scripture, tradition and reason work cohesively, without any one of them missing from the equation. Some of Church teaching isn't explicitly mentioned, but all of it is at least implicitly there. The concept of the Trinity isn't explicitly in the Bible, and how many Christians believe it? How did Christians get by in the many years between Jesus' Ascension and the Catholic Church's decision as to which books should make up the Bible?

I didn't mean to sound like I was criticizing. I love many things about how the Catholics roll. In the past I've thrown some bombs but I was just messin with you, ese.

I get what you are saying but scripture gives us direct access to the thrown room of God without hinderence. No mediator is needed. That access comes through the person of Jesus and no other person or institution. It is a deeply personally thing. When you look to a person or intitity to make the way for you then you put your trust in something that can and will fail. I'm not saying that we don't need guidence or help...we certainly do. Ritual, form without relationship and slack of spiritual intimacy are all downfalls of looking to the church for all of the answers rather than seeing God as THE direct source.

The church, which consists of the five fold ministry, excises to equip the saints (that is us) to do the work of the ministry. It's is not a place where we go so someone else can do that and we walk away to our normal lives with no change.

To address the point you made about the time period before scripture was canonized by the holy catholic church (not the Catholic Church) - well yeah, that's true. Now we have scripture to be our guide. We can search it, understand it, memorize it and love by it without the help of another. To give an institution carte blanche is risky business.

 

[L.T. Fan]

Some of you folks are struggling too much. If you are looking for proof or rationalization to believe in a purely faith structured endeavor then you will continue to struggle. One believes simply because they choose to believe. No more no less. If you still have a need or desire to substantiate your choice to believe then you will never be at peace with it. Again it' s a personal choice and it has no logic or empirical framework. You do it because you choose to do it. Anything else is a continuum of endless questions with little or no answers.

 

[Cotton]

Some of you folks are struggling too much. If you are looking for proof or rationalization to believe in a purely faith structured endeavor then you will continue to struggle. One believes simply because they choose to believe. No more no less. If you still have a need or desire to substantiate your choice to believe then you will never be at peace with it. Again it' s a personal choice and it has no logic or empirical framework. You do it because you choose to do it. Anything else is a continuum of endless questions with little or no answers.

Correct, and as of right now, I have chosen not to believe. I have left open the possibility that I could be wrong, though, since nobody can ever know until the big dance is over anyway, but I do not believe in the stories of the bible, just the morals it's trying to instill. Personal choice, but you got it right, what started me moving away from the church and it's beliefs and what has kept me away is the lack of answers that can be provided.

 

[skidadl]

That's why I don't consider myself an atheist. I can't claim to "know" for sure that there is no God any more than someone can claim to "know" for sure that there is. There is a difference between believing something and knowing it. That's why I find it humorous when people of faith claim they "know" they're right. Wrong. You believe it, you don't know it. You might be convinced by your strong belief that it is fact, but it's still just faith-based belief.

I get what you are saying but I really disagree. Sort of.

It is almost like homosexuality in a way. I could ask a gay person to prove that they are gay and their evidence would be that they like penis. A lot. Still, there is no proof that they are gay with tangible evidence. It is a belief structure that results in a behavior that comes from a persons inner most being with such force that they are fully convinced that it is true. So the evidence comes from the proof that comes from the behavior.

What I am saying is that a man with an experience is not at the mercy of a man with an arguement. If I, much like a gay person, have experienced something then there is no way another person can argue that I didn't. I mean you can but it does no good. So in that sense I can say unequivocally that there is indeed a God.

What I have found is that non-believers are not really concerned with my personal belief. The problem comes when the non-believer fears that I will project that belief of other people. Which is a legit fear because Christianity calls for an advancement of the kingdom of God by command and by nature.

 

[NoDak]

Correct, and as of right now, I have chosen not to believe. I have left open the possibility that I could be wrong, though, since nobody can ever know until the big dance is over anyway, but I do not believe in the stories of the bible, just the morals it's trying to instill. Personal choice, but you got it right, what started me moving away from the church and it's beliefs and what has kept me away is the lack of answers that can be provided.

If you're right and I'm wrong, we're just dead.

If I'm right and you're wrong...

 

[L.T. Fan]

If you're right and I'm wrong, we're just dead.

If I'm right and you're wrong...

And yet that is tragically humorous.

 

[NoDak]

And yet that is tragically humorous.

It was just a joke with Iamtdg. He knows I was playin'.

 

[Cotton]

If you're right and I'm wrong, we're just dead.

If I'm right and you're wrong...

It's definitely the risk of an agnostic or atheist for sure. But, maybe God will have pity on me knowing that I never said he for sure wasn't real?

 

[Cotton]

To be clear, though, I do believe there is something bigger and way more powerful than us out there. I don't believe this life is just for nothing. I don't believe we just die and our souls evaporate. Reincarnation would be the closest to what I believe probably happens.

 

[E_D_Guapo]

I get what you are saying but I really disagree. Sort of.

It is almost like homosexuality in a way. I could ask a gay person to prove that they are gay and their evidence would be that they like penis. A lot. Still, there is no proof that they are gay with tangible evidence. It is a belief structure that results in a behavior that comes from a persons inner most being with such force that they are fully convinced that it is true. So the evidence comes from the proof that comes from the behavior.

What I am saying is that a man with an experience is not at the mercy of a man with an arguement. If I, much like a gay person, have experienced something then there is no way another person can argue that I didn't. I mean you can but it does no good. So in that sense I can say unequivocally that there is indeed a God.

Sure, but Kareem Muhammed also has experiences and feelings and can unequivocally say that the teaching of Islam and the Koran are the truth. Ari Goldberg has experiences and feelings and can unequivocally say that the teachings of Judaism and the Torah are the truth. Radhesh Parkhi has experiences and feelings and can unequivocally say that Hindu teachings and the Bhagavad-Gita are the truth. Are these feelings not as real as yours?

What I have found is that non-believers are not really concerned with my personal belief. The problem comes when the non-believer fears that I will project that belief of other people. Which is a legit fear because Christianity calls for an advancement of the kingdom of God by command and by nature.

I know that's the commandment and all and it certainly isn't something I personally "fear". People can decide for themselves. It's more of an eyeroll type of situation for me because, to my thinking, it's "quit trying to peddle your bullshit fairy tales as fact/truth". That's a harsh way to say it but it is kind of the way that I feel. Of course people have to try to spread their faith. They should. There are just a lot of people like me that are all SMH about it because it's a farce to us.

 

[L.T. Fan]

It was just a joke with Iamtdg. He knows I was playin'.

I know. But you know me. I adore zingers.

 

[L.T. Fan]

To be clear, though, I do believe there is something bigger and way more powerful than us out there. I don't believe this life is just for nothing. I don't believe we just die and our souls evaporate. Reincarnation would be the closest to what I believe probably happens.

Maybe you will come back as a Dawg. Zing.

 

[skidadl]

Serious question for Christians, no snark intended. If you were born in, say, Afghanistan you would have been raised Muslim (or Israel and raised Jewish...whatever) and would be just as devout a Muslim as you are a Christian in reality. You would be just as adamant that Islam is the truth and the only correct religion. You'd raise your family Muslim just like you're raising your family Christian now.

But you weren't. You were born in a country where historically the majority happen to believe in Christianity and the Bible instead. The fact that you became a Christian is largely a product of the culture in which you were raised. There's no question about that. That's the reason you believe in the Bible instead of the Koran (or the Torah or whatever). How do you reconcile that?

See Ed, that's why I like you...because you are a genuine dude. Instead of lobbing bombs aimed strictly at the hot button issues you actually bring up a great point.

There is absolutely no doubt that culture plays a huge role. For me personally I did not grow up in a christian home. That came later for me when I dabbled with Christianity when I was very young and then later rejected the idea because of something that my grandmother said to me when I was about 9-10 yars old. She told me that Gid would punish me for all of my sins, so I was like, "f-it, I am a sinful bastard, so I'm about to live it up." I knew there was no way I was going to be a good kid. I was a holy terror that loved just about every perverse thing you could imagine. So I threw my middle finger up at the idea that I needed to be good enough to be accepted. Grandma proved to be poor example of evangelism because she failed to tell me the rest of the story which was there was a dude named Jesus that came to remedy that problem. Later I experimented with some eastern phylosiphes while struggling to make some changes in my life before I became a Christian. That doesn't answer your question...only providing a little background.

The point that you brought up wasn't really addressed for me personally until after the fact. Truthfully I didn't know enough when I converted to have that discussion. I simply desperately felt the need for a savior at the time. During the last 20 or so years I've had to hash out many issues and questions. While I was going to bible college and graduate school at Fuller Theological Seminary tons of these things came up. We examined all of the major religions and I became very interested in those topics. Since my conversion I've been one who studies the bible and history concerning religion. I'm certainly not saying I am an expert but I have dedicated myself to learning over along period of time.

Logically speaking, I probably would be Muslim right now if I was born in a Muslim country. Culture has a powerful impact on these things. How I reconcile it now is pretty simple. I am thankful that I was born where I was. I am thankful for the events of my life that lead me to the truth that I know. It is a pretty big difference when I ask that question vs. you hashing that question out in your mind. I feel firm in my belief structure based on study but that would have not likely have happened if it weren't for culture. I wouldn't say that I continued in my belief with without some pretty intense questioning over a very long period of time. In other words I didn't take grandma Joe or pastor Dingleberry's word for it. I honestly compared and looked into it myself and continued in my choice.

 

[skidadl]

Sure, but Kareem Muhammed also has experiences and feelings and can unequivocally say that the teaching of Islam and the Koran are the truth. Ari Goldberg has experiences and feelings and can unequivocally say that the teachings of Judaism and the Torah are the truth. Radhesh Parkhi has experiences and feelings and can unequivocally say that Hindu teachings and the Bhagavad-Gita are the truth. Are these feelings not as real as yours?



I know that's the commandment and all and it certainly isn't something I personally "fear". People can decide for themselves. It's more of an eyeroll type of situation for me because, to my thinking, it's "quit trying to peddle your bullshit fairy tales as fact/truth". That's a harsh way to say it but it is kind of the way that I feel. Of course people have to try to spread their faith. They should. There are just a lot of people like me that are all SMH about it because it's a farce to us.

No doubt about it, bro. Those experiences are real. All of those religions can bring about many of the same things. A sense of purpose, peace, well being, direction, stability, cultural bonds...all of them can do that.

There are distinct differences in those religions that I looked into and reached my conclusion. That's where I am with it.