Week 7 Game Day Chatter | Cowboys @ 49ers | 10-22-2017

Texas Ace

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What if it was like trading Troy Aikman and Emmitt Smith for Tom Brady and Joseph Addai?
Still no.

Why would I trade a QB that had proven he can win SBs AND a HOF RB just for the upgrade at QB? Even if it is significant?

You're still losing way too much and that wouldn't make sense if you already had a QB capable of winning it all.

Now in the case of Dak and Wentz, it's too early to tell what each of their ceilings is. But I do think Wentz is the better passer now and is likely to be the better QB when it's all said and done.

But that doesn't mean that he has championship pedigree, and we don't know if Dak can't win a SB either. Neither of those things has been defined yet. You're right in that he has limitations, but I believe you can win with a guy like him.

So knowing what we do right now, I don't take the upgrade at QB if it means I take a serious downgrade at RB which in turn decreases our overall level as a team.

It would be idiotic to do something like that today.
 

Smitty

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Still no.

Why would I trade a QB that had proven he can win SBs AND a HOF RB just for the upgrade at QB? Even if it is significant?
For a QB who could win 5 Super Bowls without a Hall of Fame RB?

And again, you aren't stuck with Joseph Addai. Go out and draft a first round RB next year. Many RBs will excel behind this OL.

Obviously this is a hypothetical and I'm not saying Prescott is Aikman or Wentz is Brady. Just saying I think there is some merit to whether a significant QB upgrade, from, say, Pro Bowler to All Pro at QB, is worth the tradeoff from All Pro to average RB.

I think there is a case to be made that it is worth that trade off, especially when you have an OL like ours that will spring many solid RBs to amazing seasons.

I hate to say it but I think I trade Emmitt Smith and Troy Aikman for Tom Brady all day long.

You're still losing way too much and that wouldn't make sense if you already had a QB capable of winning it all.
I am not sure there is a "too much" you could lose for a year-in, year-out All Pro QB. Especially when the cost is one additional player only.

Now in the case of Dak and Wentz, it's too early to tell what each of their ceilings is.
Of course. No one knows.

My personal opinion, and I think it's one that was bantered about roundly on this board by many posters, maybe even you, as late as a few weeks ago, is that, uh oh, it looks like Dak is struggling to be the focal point of this offense.

Dak has proven to be excellent when the run game is working. I don't believe he has shown quite the downfield, take-over-a-game-by-himself passing ability that Wentz has though. I also believe Wentz could be equal to Dak as a game-manager when a run game was working.

Gun to my head, right now, I take Wentz.

I'm not saying I'd trade Dak and Elliott for Wentz and whatever RB.

But I do think it's worth thinking about.

So knowing what we do right now, I don't take the upgrade at QB if it means I take a serious downgrade at RB which in turn decreases our overall level as a team.

It would be idiotic to do something like that today.
I don't agree that upgrading QB but downgrading RB "decreases our overall level as a team."

If you have an All-Pro QB -- let's take Brady and Manning off the table as all timers, heck, let's take Rodgers off too -- but say more on par with a Drew Brees. I mean.... that is just completely invaluable.

Yeah, I don't know if Wentz will be that. I don't know if Prescott will be Russell Wilson, more of a pedestrian regular season QB who needs some help but elevates his game in the playoffs and wins. I don't know.

But if I did know that Wentz was Brees and Prescott was Russell Wilson, I would not only swap the QBs, I would throw in Elliott, Bryant, and maybe Lee too. With our OL we will absolutely find another 1500 yard running back here, and a Drew Brees type QB will make a lot of less talented WRs produce more than Dez Bryant has been producing with Dak.

I think, if anything, swapping out to an All-Pro QB makes you better.

One of the biggest reasons is, again, just because you trade away 2 or 3 for 1, doesn't mean you are stuck with backups at those other positons. Consolidating assets into an elite piece, then let's you go out and replace the parts you traded away with future draft picks and free agent contracts. We aren't stuck with Alfred Morris forever if we trade away Elliott. We could draft a stud RB in the first who turns into another 1500 yard back.
 

Smitty

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Give Zeke the Herschel Walker treatment?
I'm not advocating that. I'm just saying... if you thought you could trade for 24 year old Ben Roethlisberger or Drew Brees.... and you thought your current QB was Russell Wilson.... I mean.... you don't even have the conversation? You just hang up and dismiss it out of hand?

Come on.
 

Texas Ace

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I hate to say it but I think I trade Emmitt Smith and Troy Aikman for Tom Brady all day long.
And you would be wrong to do that.

What you're suggesting is the equivalent of having a really nice home in a really nice area where your kids love their school and friends, but exchanging it for a mansion in a posh area without taking into consideration the new expenses you're going to incur and how it's going to alter your lifestyle and that of your family.

At face value it looks like an upgrade, but you could find that it may not work out the way that you think because you're coming very close to trying to fix what isn't broken.

In theory, Tom Brady over Aikman would be an upgrade, sure. But when you already have a QB who is capable of being the captain of a dynasty, and a HOF all-time RB, why on earth would you make a trade when you're already achieving the maximum?

It's foolish.
 

Smitty

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And you would be wrong to do that.
:lol

Sure.

What you're suggesting is the equivalent of having a really nice home in a really nice area where your kids love their school and friends, but exchanging it for a mansion in a posh area without taking into consideration the new expenses you're going to incur and how it's going to alter your lifestyle and that of your family.

At face value it looks like an upgrade, but you could find that it may not work out the way that you think because you're coming very close to trying to fix what isn't broken.
No, what I'm suggesting is that I'd rather a QB who won 5 Super Bowls without a Hall of Fame RB than a QB who only won 3 WITH a Hall of Fame RB.

If you are saying there is no debate to be had, you are the one who is wrong.

In theory, Tom Brady over Aikman would be an upgrade, sure. But when you already have a QB who is capable of being the captain of a dynasty, and a HOF all-time RB, why on earth would you make a trade when you're already achieving the maximum?

It's foolish.
I see the flaw in your thinking. You are equating 3 to 5.

5 is actually two more than 3.

So 3 isn't "the maximum."
 

Cowboysrock55

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:lol

Sure.



No, what I'm suggesting is that I'd rather a QB who won 5 Super Bowls without a Hall of Fame RB than a QB who only won 3 WITH a Hall of Fame RB.

If you are saying there is no debate to be had, you are the one who is wrong.



I see the flaw in your thinking. You are equating 3 to 5.

5 is actually two more than 3.

So 3 isn't "the maximum."
It's a debate but there are so many factors that determine a QBs success. I don't subscribe to the idea that Brady under any coach, in any scenario still wins 5 Suiperbowls. You take a QB out of one system with specific talent and throw him into another system with different talent around him and you may get totally different results.

Wentz QB coach is getting talked about as a head coaching candidate because of the job he has done with him. Who knows if Wade Wilson gets the same out of him.
 

Angrymesscan

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Would you have traded Brady for Manning?
I'm not saying either is one of those 2, but Brady wasn't as "perfect" a QB as Peyton either.
 

Smitty

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It's a debate but there are so many factors that determine a QBs success. I don't subscribe to the idea that Brady under any coach, in any scenario still wins 5 Suiperbowls. You take a QB out of one system with specific talent and throw him into another system with different talent around him and you may get totally different results.

Wentz QB coach is getting talked about as a head coaching candidate because of the job he has done with him. Who knows if Wade Wilson gets the same out of him.
True.
 

NoDak

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Wentz QB coach is getting talked about as a head coaching candidate because of the job he has done with him. Who knows if Wade Wilson gets the same out of him.
Wentz was a winner that could carry a team long before he ever met his QB coach in Philly. It's not like he showed up at Eagles training camp with no clue how to play the position and had to be coached up.

I'd wager to say he's pretty much just got out of the way and tried not to fuck things up with him. Much like is claimed Wilson does around here with Prescott. If you question if Wilson could get the same out of Wentz, does that mean if Philly's QB coach had Prescott, Dak would be that much better than he is right now?
 

Cowboysrock55

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Wentz was a winner that could carry a team long before he ever met his QB coach in Philly. It's not like he showed up at Eagles training camp with no clue how to play the position and had to be coached up.

I'd wager to say he's pretty much just got out of the way and tried not to fuck things up with him. Much like is claimed Wilson does around here with Prescott. If you question if Wilson could get the same out of Wentz, does that mean if Philly's QB coach had Prescott, Dak would be that much better than he is right now?
Maybe?

You talk about Wentz like he was a finished product coming into the NFL. He has been much better this year than he was last year. He is averaging almost 2 yards more per pass attempt and his TD to INT ratio is way better. All of that has led to a QB rating about 25 points higher than last season. Teams attribute that significant improvement to coaching.

Dak came in and lit the world on fire. I'm not sure any QB coach in the NFL could have helped him improve significantly on his rookie numbers. Other than his pure TDs, which have jumped up dramatically this season. So no, I'm not saying that the Eagles QB coach would have done the same for Dak. They were different products when they got to the NFL. Which is exactly my point. Circumstances sometimes work perfect for one guy but might not have the same impact on another.
 

data

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I'm not advocating that. I'm just saying... if you thought you could trade for 24 year old Ben Roethlisberger or Drew Brees.... and you thought your current QB was Russell Wilson.... I mean.... you don't even have the conversation? You just hang up and dismiss it out of hand?

Come on.
I made no reference to the QB hypothetical. In response to your comment about RBs (plural) every year that could thrive behind our OL, why wouldn’t we try and get Herschel Walker value? You’d almost be an idiot not to.

But now you say you’re not advocating a Zeke trade? You’d refuse three 1st rounders and three 2nd rounders and whatever else the Vikings gave up straight up for Zeke?

Give me a Mark Ingram with a couple DTs, a FS, WR and another pass rusher.

Question isn’t would we, it’s more who’d be the trading partner.
 

Cowboysrock55

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I made no reference to the QB hypothetical. In response to your comment about RBs (plural) every year that could thrive behind our OL, why wouldn’t we try and get Herschel Walker value? You’d almost be an idiot not to.

But now you say you’re not advocating a Zeke trade? You’d refuse three 1st rounders and three 2nd rounders and whatever else the Vikings gave up straight up for Zeke?

Give me a Mark Ingram with a couple DTs, a FS, WR and another pass rusher.

Question isn’t would we, it’s more who’d be the trading partner.
No other team would do a Herschel trade with us but if I could flip Zeke for that? Hell yeah I would. Nothing against Zeke, I love him. But no RB is ever worth that.
 
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Angrymesscan

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No one is getting a Hershel trade because not even the Vikings knew they were giving all that. They never thought Jimmy would cut all the players to get the picks.
 

Smitty

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I made no reference to the QB hypothetical. In response to your comment about RBs (plural) every year that could thrive behind our OL, why wouldn’t we try and get Herschel Walker value? You’d almost be an idiot not to.

But now you say you’re not advocating a Zeke trade? You’d refuse three 1st rounders and three 2nd rounders and whatever else the Vikings gave up straight up for Zeke?

Give me a Mark Ingram with a couple DTs, a FS, WR and another pass rusher.

Question isn’t would we, it’s more who’d be the trading partner.
I'd have to think about it. For sure.

Yeah, I do think we could find another RB somewhere who could put up similar stats.

Three firsts and three seconds?

I mean.... you have to consider that offer.
 

Cotton

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"Aikman, shut. up." :lol

Spot on, as always.
 

Cotton

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"Jeff. Heath. semi-automatic" :lol
 
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