The Colin Kaepernick Thread...

[peplaw06]

I thought it was great to see the unity from the teams following Trump opening his gob again, but they can go back to standing now.

And I am assuming they will.

 

[peplaw06]

When will people learn that you don't have free speech rights @ work?

Not true... Your employer can't physically prevent you from speaking, nor will you lose your freedoms for speaking (aka be arrested, charged, etc.) You might have other repercussions, such as losing your job if your employer so chooses. But if you're an at will employee, or your contract allows the employer to get out of paying you, then you don't have a right to your job.

But the NFL is supporting this as a league. They haven't supported Kaepernick, but they're supporting the rest of the players who protested yesterday. Many of the owners stood arm in arm with their players or issued public statements lauding the players. Even trump friend Kraft supported his players.

Yesterday's protest wasn't a response to Kaepernick. It was a response to Trump opening his blow hole.

 

[bbgun]

Not true... Your employer can't physically prevent you from speaking, nor will you lose your freedoms for speaking (aka be arrested, charged, etc.) You might have other repercussions, such as losing your job if your employer so chooses. But if you're an at will employee, or your contract allows the employer to get out of paying you, then you don't have a right to your job.

Fine, they don't have consequence-free speech rights at work. That should have been implied. I can’t tell you how many times friends have told me they fear losing their job if they express non-liberal opinions at work or in a way that people at work could find out. See: James Damore (Google).

But the NFL is supporting this as a league.

Foolishly.

They haven't supported Kaepernick, but they're supporting the rest of the players who protested yesterday. Many of the owners stood arm in arm with their players or issued public statements lauding the players. Even trump friend Kraft supported his players.

I already explained why. If these were white players protesting gay marriage, affirmative action, illegal immigration or black-on-white crime, the league would be decidedly less sympathetic.

Yesterday's protest wasn't a response to Kaepernick. It was a response to Trump opening his blow hole.

I've already conceded that Trump is a low IQ boob who can't discuss important issues in a thoughtful or sophisticated manner, which causes him (and the people paid to defend him) countless problems. He was in front of a friendly crowd and went full Archie Bunker. Saying "son of a bitch" in public is unbecoming of a President. But the league just demonstrated that they're more offended by Trump than players disrespecting the flag and alienating fans. They've taken sides in the culture wars, and now they have to live with the consequences.

 

[peplaw06]

Fine, they don't have consequence-free speech rights at work. That should have been implied. I can’t tell you how many times friends have told me they fear losing their job if they express non-liberal opinions at work or in a way that people at work could find out. See: James Damore (Google).

And do you think that's right? That people should fear the repercussions of speaking out with non-liberal opinions?

Foolishly.

Disagree. I wouldn't want to fear losing my job for speaking out in support of conservative ideals. just as I wouldn't want to fear losing my job for kneeling during the anthem. How about everyone quit being so sensitive and let people speak how they choose without being offended? So long as you're not physically hurting people or destroying property, who gives a shit? So you disagree? Ok fine, you disagree. I can handle that.

I already explained why. If these were white players protesting gay marriage, affirmative action, illegal immigration or black-on-white crime, the league would be decidedly less sympathetic.

And that would be wrong as well. You seem to be arguing that people shouldn't be allowed to speak if you disagree with them, but should be allowed if you agree with them. that's not how it works.

I've already conceded that Trump is a low IQ boob who can't discuss important issues in a thoughtful or sophisticated manner, which causes him (and the people paid to defend him) countless problems. He was in front of a friendly crowd and went full Archie Bunker. Saying "son of a bitch" in public is unbecoming of a President. But the league just demonstrated that they're more offended by Trump than players disrespecting the flag and alienating fans. They've taken sides in the culture wars, and now they have to live with the consequences.

The fact there's a culture war at all is what's embarrasing. People just looking for something to be offended about. Why does what some random special teams football player in Jacksonville do during 2 minutes of a song affect your every day life? Like if everyone doesn't have the exact same bodily posture people lose their minds.

It's a song, and a flag. If you want people to be dictated to respond a certain way, then North Korea may be your cup of tea.

 

[Texas Ace]

Disagree. I wouldn't want to fear losing my job for speaking out in support of conservative ideals. just as I wouldn't want to fear losing my job for kneeling during the anthem. How about everyone quit being so sensitive and let people speak how they choose without being offended? So long as you're not physically hurting people or destroying property, who gives a shit? So you disagree? Ok fine, you disagree. I can handle that.

Right.

It's not about agreeing or disagreeing with the stance that I find curious, it's how highly offended people are by it to the point that they don't want to watch NFL games over it.

Is it really that serious?

 

[BipolarFuk]

But as I edited into the conversation, when retard Donald Trump says something ludicrous, I can ignore it. It's one guy, and I can shut off his lunacy. Yes, it's the President of the US. He's a petulant child. He has essentially zero power over your daily lives, though, just like Obama couldn't ruin the country for conservatives. The Republican Congress can't even get their shit together to carry out any Republican policy objectives; the rest of Trump's power is judicial nominations (too bad, suck it up and don't nominate a crook like Hillary next time), executive orders (which can simply be rescinded and undone in 4 years), and annoying TV monologues.

That's it.

I ignore the guy because he's blatantly unqualified to be President, he's an embarassment, and anything positive he does for conservatives like me is pure luck, in fact he does more harm than good. So I tune out nearly all of his crap, and everyone else should too.

But what I can't fucking tune out is the parade of social commentary I am subjected to when I'm trying to watch football.

Then quit fucking watching, snowflake.

The NFL has weighed the situation and has the back of the players.

 

[Smitty]

Fair enough.

But what we saw yesterday was a result of that buffoon we have sitting in the presidential office speaking irresponsibly....as he has so many times before.

Before yesterday, there were a few guys kneeling here and there around the league. But seeing full participation from players and owners alike from every single team is a direct result of that moron talking out of his ass again.

Absolutely. He enflamed this situation.

 

[Smitty]

Then quit fucking watching, snowflake.

I probably will, other than the Cowboys.

It's just too bad that a handful of selfish activists see fit to ruin a good product for everyone else.

 

[Smitty]

Then stop watching. And stop wasting time fretting about it on a message board. If you don't want to deal with the issue, it's easy enough to avoid.

I didn't want to deal with the issue; but here it is on a gameday chatter thread on a message board that I frequent daily.

If you want them to stick to sports, then just stick to your life.

I will, actually. But as I said, they have the right to say it, but I have the right, as the consumer, to communicate my displeasure with their message.

 

[Smitty]

?

He was sticking to his life, until the race mongers stopped sticking to sports. Oh God, now you have me defending Smitty.

You act like that's a bad thing. Other than Garrett we probably agree on almost everything.

 

[fortsbest]

My take on the matter. My family history is deep with military tradition and general love for this country. As I grew up, I spent lots of time with my Dad (24 years enlisted in the USAF) in his offices and much time with those he worked with, many of whom were minorities. As such I may have a different perspective, view or relationship from a typical white person raised exclusively in the States. Regardless, The people he worked came to our house, broke bread with us, had us to their houses and were a part of our family. I didn't matter what color they were or where they came from (many, specially in Iceland, were Philippino) . Regardless where they came from or what their color, these people had dedicated their lives to service of something they believed in. None of them mind you would see combat (it was the USAF, not the Army or Marines) but the dedication was still there. I was raised that you respect others and treat them with dignity and I was taught that this is the country that while not perfect, has led the way for fighting and protecting the freedoms of those less fortunate. That while individuals may sometimes not live up to those ideals, the Nation and the flag that represents it always should and as such, you should honor what that stands for by respecting it. When we do that, we not only honor what the nation is supposed to be, but those that sacrificed for it. While many take the time to mention the soldiers that fought and died or were wounded, that also includes the families of those soldiers that people fail to mention. I wasn't in the military, but were were IN the military.

As to these protests, several things bother me, but first and foremost, I feel it disrespectful as described. Secondly, The NFL ownership and league itself has the word National in it and uses an emblem that has direct ties to the flag, think that's a coincidence? My time spent watching sports is to escape politics and other normal worldly cares so I can root for the team that represent my area. Therefore the players refusing to take part in a ritual designed to celebrate the country that gives them the freedom to earn what they do at our expense playing a sport is insulting on so many levels.

Most of them yesterday weren't to protest injustices, most were doing it as an in your face to Trump for tweets. Even those that did do it for what they felt were legit reasons should not. If they truly felt there is racial injustice, then get out in their local neighborhoods they feel have problems and get with your local police departments to help in ways that are actually meaningful. Collin's kneeling was because of issues with police and yet that sorry sucker did nothing but kneel. Did he ever go into the areas supposedly having trouble? Did he go visit with SFPD to see what lengths they were going to to try and help communities or training to better deal with people? Doubtful. I bet the same can be said for all those other hypocrites in the NFL. And oh, they stand arm in arm in unity for their team mates. Really? Millionaire, spoiled athletes showing unity for one another because most of Americans don't like what they are doing (including the president)? And when one (Villenueva) a vet shows his honor for the Anthem and Flag, his coach back bites him for it because the team is more important than country?

Oh, hell to the no. And Goodell, the biggest hypocrite of them all. Talks about the right of the players to protest and how he supports their rights and yet all the while he is trying to ignore or deny Zeke's? I hope this doesn't just read like a mad rant but this combined with what LT said are my issues with it. Don't subject us to your disrespect and not expect backlash, and if you truly cared about the concerns you profess, get out and actually do something about them. See if some of your grievances aren't already trying to be addressed and if so, acknowledge that, admit progress is being made and let's move together to get even further down the road. Just blatant and blanket, we area against police brutality, is BS for one, and just a slogan if you do nothing about it.

 

[bbgun]

And do you think that's right? That people should fear the repercussions of speaking out with non-liberal opinions?

Conventional conservative opinions? Absolutely not.

Disagree. I wouldn't want to fear losing my job for speaking out in support of conservative ideals. just as I wouldn't want to fear losing my job for kneeling during the anthem. How about everyone quit being so sensitive and let people speak how they choose without being offended? So long as you're not physically hurting people or destroying property, who gives a shit? So you disagree? Ok fine, you disagree. I can handle that.

Kneeling is not a conventional liberal position. It's motivated by raw hate. Ditto wearing socks depicting cops as pigs or blowing kisses to a tyrant like Castro. He's not an activist; he's a left-wing radical, as is his mouthy gf who likens NFL owners to slave owners. Worse, the entire movement is predicated on a lie. There's no epidemic of unjust police killings of blacks. If you think the American flag is morally indistinguishable from the Confederate flag, you are decidedly outside of the mainstream.

And that would be wrong as well. You seem to be arguing that people shouldn't be allowed to speak if you disagree with them, but should be allowed if you agree with them. that's not how it works.

You have a right to free speech, and employers have a right not to be associated with said speech if they think it's offensive or hurts their brand. Simple as that. Again, Kaep isn't being criticized because he stuffed envelopes for Bernie or went door to door for Hillary.

The fact there's a culture war at all is what's embarrasing. People just looking for something to be offended about. Why does what some random special teams football player in Jacksonville do during 2 minutes of a song affect your every day life? Like if everyone doesn't have the exact same bodily posture people lose their minds.

What's embarrassing is that you have to do something heinous or disrespectful to draw attention to your cause .. which doesn't say much about your cause.

It's a song, and a flag. If you want people to be dictated to respond a certain way, then North Korea may be your cup of tea.

Enforcing workplace rules = North Korea? Go take a nap.

 

[Smitty]

Most of them yesterday weren't to protest injustices, most were doing it as an in your face to Trump for tweets.

This is 100% true by the way.

Most of these clueless, uneducated athletes have zero knowledge about social studies, civil rights, the Constitution, or anything else civics-related; but they know that mean old Donald Trump hates minorities. Thanks, Comedy Central and ESPN! By becoming quasi-mouthpieces for the liberal wing of the Democratic party, you've put out a dumbed-down, sound-byte comedy ideology where everything and everyone who opposes your agenda is evil, a racist, a bigot, a something-a-phobe, a greedy rich person, or a clueless old white man.

Many of these guys have no strong feelings about this. They just know Donald Trump is bad.

 

[Texas Ace]

Most of them yesterday weren't to protest injustices, most were doing it as an in your face to Trump for tweets. Even those that did do it for what they felt were legit reasons should not. If they truly felt there is racial injustice, then get out in their local neighborhoods they feel have problems and get with your local police departments to help in ways that are actually meaningful. Collin's kneeling was because of issues with police and yet that sorry sucker did nothing but kneel. Did he ever go into the areas supposedly having trouble? Did he go visit with SFPD to see what lengths they were going to to try and help communities or training to better deal with people? Doubtful. I bet the same can be said for all those other hypocrites in the NFL. And oh, they stand arm in arm in unity for their team mates.

This I am in total agreement with.

Kaepernick is a clown who deserves no sympathy whatsoever. He's nothing but talk and he doesn't deserve the support of anyone.

Malcolm Jenkins of the Eagles has actually done exactly what you described. He's gone out with Philly PD to try and understand them better while also voicing his concerns to them.

Kaepernick at no point did anything at all to try and make a difference. That dumbass even said he didn't vote, so why would anyone take him seriously.

Now, as for the platform these guys should be using.......well, it's not that easy. Lots of times we see members of the black community go out into their communities to protest and you know what happens?

It maybe gets a few minutes on the local news then everyone goes on about their day. If they're lucky, it probably makes national news where talking heads on CNN or Fox News discuss the issue for a few minutes and then it's all forgotten about soon thereafter.

So while I don't know if the doing it during the national anthem of a sporting event is the answer, I do know that what you suggested isn't either because it usually falls on deaf ears.

The idea is to make people uncomfortable to the point that it has to be addressed. Protesting in their local communities never accomplishes that.

 

[bbgun]

Absolutely. He enflamed this situation.

Trump wasn't the one who politicized football, and he's allowed to have an opinion like anyone else (esp since he once owned a pro team), it's just that he's a Neanderthal when it comes to sensitive topics. Kaep isn't relevant when you're stumping for a Senator in Alabama.

 

[peplaw06]

I didn't want to deal with the issue; but here it is on a gameday chatter thread on a message board that I frequent daily.

I will, actually. But as I said, they have the right to say it, but I have the right, as the consumer, to communicate my displeasure with their message.

Absolutely you do. We all have the right to say what we want about it.

I'm just more into the mentality behind being offended by what they say. We let too much into our lives that affects us, stresses us out, etc. I try to avoid stress, and I rarely take offense to things that are said by people who I don't have a personal relationship with. It's such a monumental waste of time.

 

[bbgun]

This is 100% true by the way.

Most of these clueless, uneducated athletes have zero knowledge about social studies, civil rights, the Constitution, or anything else civics-related; but they know that mean old Donald Trump hates minorities. Thanks, Comedy Central and ESPN! By becoming quasi-mouthpieces for the liberal wing of the Democratic party, you've put out a dumbed-down, sound-byte comedy ideology where everything and everyone who opposes your agenda is evil, a racist, a bigot, a something-a-phobe, a greedy rich person, or a clueless old white man.

Many of these guys have no strong feelings about this. They just know Donald Trump is bad.

That's just it. 70% of the fans object to the protests, but they have next to no representation in the media. Go to the web pages of CNNSI, ESPN or the NYDN and it's 90% pro-player/anti-Trump. And now the cucked NFL extends their middle finger. Golly, I wonder why ratings are headed south.

 

[Smitty]

This I am in total agreement with.

Kaepernick is a clown who deserves no sympathy whatsoever. He's nothing but talk and he doesn't deserve the support of anyone.

Malcolm Jenkins of the Eagles has actually done exactly what you described. He's gone out with Philly PD to try and understand them better while also voicing his concerns to them.

Kaepernick at no point did anything at all to try and make a difference. That dumbass even said he didn't vote, so why would anyone take him seriously.

Now, as for the platform these guys should be using.......well, it's not that easy. Lots of time we saw members of the black community go out into their communities to protest and you know what happens?

It maybe gets a few minutes on the local news then everyone goes on about their day. If they're lucky, it probably makes national news where talking heads on CNN or Fox News discuss the issue for a few minutes and then it's all forgotten about soon thereafter.

So while I don't know if the doing it during the national anthem of a sporting event is the answer, I do know that what you suggested isn't either because it usually falls on deaf ears.

The idea is to make people uncomfortable to the point that it has to be addressed. Protesting in their local communities never accomplishes that.

People like Jamele Hill say they have an obligation to use their platform and celebrity status (~snicker~) to make these issues knnown.

That is fair enough, though I don't necessarily agree. If I somehow ever had a 15 minutes of fame, I'd probably take 12 of those minutes to deliver a Wickard versus Filburn diatribe.

But IMO it is explicitly not right to make it such a big deal with what I'll call, for lack of a better word, a captive audience. One guy wants to kneel? An entire team wants to make a meaningful gesture for one game? Fine. Whatever. I can gloss over that if I don't care for or approve of the message.

But I am a paying NFL customer and advertising target. Me, and roughly 50% (probably a little higher, actually) of the rest of the audience actively disapproves of the message here, and these players know it. We are left with a choice of either turning off the TV (which I will probably do to an extent... I'm not announcing a "boycott" but if the heavy-handedness gets to be too much, I'd rather do something else cause watching is no longer fun when I'm being lectured), or having to endure an NFL-sanctioned berating of our own views.

I'm not gonna say the league has any obligation to treat me and my opinion a certain way, but it's not really "right," either. You are making me choose in between watching something you know I'm really an addict for, or having to put up with your bullshit. They are counting on not losing too many viewers because we are addicts; and even with that, they've been losing casual fans, and it's showing in the ratings.

That's their prerogative, but IMO, it's not the right approach.

If people like Kaepernick or Jamele Hill feel they have an obligation to say something, and they think their personal star power has attracted them an audience, pick a forum to display that message that isn't 4 pm on Sunday at Levis stadium, or the studio in Bristol, Connecticut. If they have that many followers and people who appreciate what they have to say, as stars, they will be covered and they will get their message out.

But in reality what these people are doing is admitting that they can't get their message out on their own. They are relying on the NFL's star power, and ESPN's star power, and they are co-opting that content and making it their own. See, cause I don't have to tune into a Colin Kaepernick webcast show where he talks about social issues. I can ignore that, and almost everyone would, because he's a dunce and his take on social issues is as important as a goldfish's.

But when he makes it so that you can't watch the NFL without seeing his message, he's essentially forcing you to pick. That's not really quite fair.

The league allows this to happen. It's their prerogative, as I said.

But something about it is "not quite right," in my opinion.

 

[BipolarFuk]

My take on the matter. My family history is deep with military tradition and general love for this country. As I grew up, I spent lots of time with my Dad (24 years enlisted in the USAF) in his offices and much time with those he worked with, many of whom were minorities. As such I may have a different perspective, view or relationship from a typical white person raised exclusively in the States. Regardless, The people he worked came to our house, broke bread with us, had us to their houses and were a part of our family. I didn't matter what color they were or where they came from (many, specially in Iceland, were Philippino) . Regardless where they came from or what their color, these people had dedicated their lives to service of something they believed in. None of them mind you would see combat (it was the USAF, not the Army or Marines) but the dedication was still there. I was raised that you respect others and treat them with dignity and I was taught that this is the country that while not perfect, has led the way for fighting and protecting the freedoms of those less fortunate. That while individuals may sometimes not live up to those ideals, the Nation and the flag that represents it always should and as such, you should honor what that stands for by respecting it. When we do that, we not only honor what the nation is supposed to be, but those that sacrificed for it. While many take the time to mention the soldiers that fought and died or were wounded, that also includes the families of those soldiers that people fail to mention. I wasn't in the military, but were were IN the military.

As to these protests, several things bother me, but first and foremost, I feel it disrespectful as described. Secondly, The NFL ownership and league itself has the word National in it and uses an emblem that has direct ties to the flag, think that's a coincidence? My time spent watching sports is to escape politics and other normal worldly cares so I can root for the team that represent my area. Therefore the players refusing to take part in a ritual designed to celebrate the country that gives them the freedom to earn what they do at our expense playing a sport is insulting on so many levels.

Most of them yesterday weren't to protest injustices, most were doing it as an in your face to Trump for tweets. Even those that did do it for what they felt were legit reasons should not. If they truly felt there is racial injustice, then get out in their local neighborhoods they feel have problems and get with your local police departments to help in ways that are actually meaningful. Collin's kneeling was because of issues with police and yet that sorry sucker did nothing but kneel. Did he ever go into the areas supposedly having trouble? Did he go visit with SFPD to see what lengths they were going to to try and help communities or training to better deal with people? Doubtful. I bet the same can be said for all those other hypocrites in the NFL. And oh, they stand arm in arm in unity for their team mates. Really? Millionaire, spoiled athletes showing unity for one another because most of Americans don't like what they are doing (including the president)? And when one (Villenueva) a vet shows his honor for the Anthem and Flag, his coach back bites him for it because the team is more important than country?

Oh, hell to the no. And Goodell, the biggest hypocrite of them all. Talks about the right of the players to protest and how he supports their rights and yet all the while he is trying to ignore or deny Zeke's? I hope this doesn't just read like a mad rant but this combined with what LT said are my issues with it. Don't subject us to your disrespect and not expect backlash, and if you truly cared about the concerns you profess, get out and actually do something about them. See if some of your grievances aren't already trying to be addressed and if so, acknowledge that, admit progress is being made and let's move together to get even further down the road. Just blatant and blanket, we area against police brutality, is BS for one, and just a slogan if you do nothing about it.

TRIGGERED!!!!

 

[midswat]

Did Jamele Hill do anything to bring intelligent discourse to the conversation? Or did she just make ignorant claims that Trump is a racist?

How would that situation have been handled if Scott Van Pelt tweeted that Obama is a Muslim?