OJ vs. America

[Texas Ace]

They overkilled and confused the jury but I guess the question was did the jury listen to the evidence or was their mind already set toward a racist agenda.

And this is why I think the prosecution gets too much crap over that verdict.

Yes, they didn't do the best job possible, and they made their share of mistakes, but my goodness......the evidence was so overwhelmingly against OJ that it should have been an open and shut case.

The biggest problem is that the majority of that jury had pretty much made up their minds from the beginning that OJ was either innocent or that they weren't going to give the justice system this one after all they had been through.

I think the most realistic positive-ish outcome the prosecution could have hoped for was a hung jury/mistrial.

 

[dallen]

The thing that the doc and the show made clear that I had never considered before is how much the jury just wanted to get out of there. My guess is that Cochran got through to a few people who made it clear that they were stubbornly going to stick to not guilty even if it was just to stick it to the LAPD and at that point the rest cared more about going home than in letting a murderer go free. That is probably a little oversimplistic, but I believe it played a big part in it.

 

[Texas Ace]

Who gives a damn if I am white? I get the irony, but do we really have to make every single damn thing about the color of someone's skin? It's simply not helping.

As someone who is neither white nor black, I think I can have a level-headed view on this issue -- and I'm not implying than no one in here can.

The problem here is that so many whites are quick to jump on a black person or a group when they include race into their agenda, but not stopping to think about how long that same person or group has suffered from injustices and racial agendas themselves. Yea, you can sit there and say something like "I get that they have gone through ABC, but they shouldn't go on and do XYZ".

It's simply not that easy.

So to speak on the OJ case specifically, Cochran didn't just race bait in order to win the case, he also did it because he was passionate about the injustices blacks had endured and were still enduring in L.A. He devoted his entire adult life to trying to do something about it. To expose the corruption and systematic racism within the L.A.P.D. You can try to imagine what it's like, but you will never ever know. Watching your people get killed and abused for nothing year after year after year and then watching as the "leaders" of the city, state, and country just stand by and continue to all let it go -- as if to imply that your life is of little to no value. You're less than human....you don't matter.

Imagine you're Johnny Cochran. You're an educated and wealthy man. You conduct yourself well. And yet, you too are constantly harassed by police. Even when you treat an officer with respect, you're still dealt with rudely and unacceptably......all because you're black. What kind of affect do you think that has on a person?

I have a black friend who goes through stuff like this all the time. He has a masters degree from Rice University. He's the IT Director for an oil and gas company here in Houston. In fact, because he speaks so proper, he is often poked fun at by his black friends. And yet this individual deals with awkward looks and offensive actions on a regular basis. The stories he's told me are disturbing.

So my point is, try to imagine going through all of this and then having your chance to expose it and make a difference. You're given a platform to make your case. Do you think you could keep race completely out of it?

I doubt it.

Just so you know, I do think Cochran was irresponsible in a lot of what he did. I do think he risked taking things too far but didn't really care. I do think the BLM movement is total BS and are exactly what blacks do NOT need in order to help their cause for equality. But as a human being, I also understand how so much of what happens to them and around them throughout their lives has such a profound impact that it leads to them bringing race into the discussion even when everyone else thinks they shouldn't.

 

[Texas Ace]

The thing that the doc and the show made clear that I had never considered before is how much the jury just wanted to get out of there. My guess is that Cochran got through to a few people who made it clear that they were stubbornly going to stick to not guilty even if it was just to stick it to the LAPD and at that point the rest cared more about going home than in letting a murderer go free. That is probably a little oversimplistic, but I believe it played a big part in it.

I don't think it's oversimplistic at all.

I think you're mostly right about this. They wanted to go home. And most of them already knew where they were going anyway. They didn't need to deliberate another 10 hours or another 10 days. Most of the jurors were on the "not guilty" side, and I'm guessing the 2, maybe 3 who voted for "guilty" were so exhausted by the whole thing that they didn't bother to try and argue the other jurors into changing their votes because they too were just ready to get the hell out of there.

They had spent so much time with this case that they knew everything there was to know. It wasn't like they forgot anything.

If I were part of a jury that spent roughly a year on the same exact case, my guess is that by the time we got to the end of it, I'd know exactly where I stood too. And that's not even getting into the fact that certain jurors were always going to vote "not guilty" from the very start.

 

[Cotton]

As someone who is neither white nor black, I think I can have a level-headed view on this issue -- and I'm not implying than no one in here can.

The problem here is that so many whites are quick to jump on a black person or a group when they include race into their agenda, but not stopping to think about how long that same person or group has suffered from injustices and racial agendas themselves. Yea, you can sit there and say something like "I get that they have gone through ABC, but they shouldn't go on and do XYZ".

It's simply not that easy.

So to speak on the OJ case specifically, Cochran didn't just race bait in order to win the case, he also did it because he was passionate about the injustices blacks had endured and were still enduring in L.A. He devoted his entire adult life to trying to do something about it. To expose the corruption and systematic racism within the L.A.P.D. You can try to imagine what it's like, but you will never ever know. Watching your people get killed and abused for nothing year after year after year and then watching as the "leaders" of the city, state, and country just stand by and continue to all let it go -- as if to imply that your life is of little to no value. You're less than human....you don't matter.

Imagine you're Johnny Cochran. You're an educated and wealthy man. You conduct yourself well. And yet, you too are constantly harassed by police. Even when you treat an officer with respect, you're still dealt with rudely and unacceptably......all because you're black. What kind of affect do you think that has on a person?

I have a black friend who goes through stuff like this all the time. He has a masters degree from Rice University. He's the IT Director for an oil and gas company here in Houston. In fact, because he speaks so proper, he is often poked fun at by his black friends. And yet this individual deals with awkward looks and offensive actions on a regular basis. The stories he's told me are disturbing.

So my point is, try to imagine going through all of this and then having your chance to expose it and make a difference. You're given a platform to make your case. Do you think you could keep race completely out of it?

I doubt it.

Just so you know, I do think Cochran was irresponsible in a lot of what he did. I do think he risked taking things too far but didn't really care. I do think the BLM movement is total BS and are exactly what blacks do NOT need in order to help their cause for equality. But as a human being, I also understand how so much of what happens to them and around them throughout their lives has such a profound impact that it leads to them bringing race into the discussion even when everyone else thinks they shouldn't.

I absolutely agree that the injustices were terrible back then. The black population were treated almost as something subhuman. And, the civil rights movement, with Cochran as a huge part of it, was essential to righting some of those wrongs. My point is, the criminal case against OJ and the current civil rights violation had nothing to do with each other until Johnnie married the two. That is the issue that I'm most upset about. The case had zero to do with race. That is until is was made to be about race, which is the irresponsible thing you spoke of, and the thing that pisses me off. And, not just this one instance, mind you. It happens a lot, and it needs to stop if we are ever going to make true progress.

 

[Cotton]

I don't think it's oversimplistic at all.

I think you're mostly right about this. They wanted to go home. And most of them already knew where they were going anyway. They didn't need to deliberate another 10 hours or another 10 days. Most of the jurors were on the "not guilty" side, and I'm guessing the 2, maybe 3 who voted for "guilty" were so exhausted by the whole thing that they didn't bother to try and argue the other jurors into changing their votes because they too were just ready to get the hell out of there.

They had spent so much time with this case that they knew everything there was to know. It wasn't like they forgot anything.

If I were part of a jury that spent roughly a year on the same exact case, my guess is that by the time we got to the end of it, I'd know exactly where I stood too. And that's not even getting into the fact that certain jurors were always going to vote "not guilty" from the very start.

The prosecution ran that case very similar to how Hillary ran her campaign. In a very cocky manner. And, it cost them.

 

[Texas Ace]

The prosecution ran that case very similar to how Hillary ran her campaign. In a very cocky manner. And, it cost them.

They did, but as I said before, they still don't win that case with a mostly black jury in downtown L.A.

Did you watch the OJ Made in America documentary? In episode 5, they interview one of the jurors who is now an elderly black woman. Her behavior is disgusting. She has no remorse whatsoever that she helped set a guilty man free and Nicole and Ron's lives appear to mean nothing to her at all. She flat out admits that her vote was payback.

There's also the middle-aged black man who raises a fist as he exits the courtroom to signal solidarity as a fellow black man.

Those are just two examples of people that were never ever going to vote guilty.

 

[Cotton]

They did, but as I said before, they still don't win that case with a mostly black jury in downtown L.A.

Did you watch the OJ Made in America documentary? In episode 5, they interview one of the jurors who is now an elderly black woman. Her behavior is disgusting. She has no remorse whatsoever that she helped set a guilty man free and Nicole and Ron's lives appear to mean nothing to her at all. She flat out admits that her vote was payback.

There's also the middle-aged black man who raises a fist as he exits the courtroom to signal solidarity as a fellow black man.

Those are just two examples of people that were never ever going to vote guilty.

The documentary is what I watched. And, I agree the jury was going to be very tough to get past. And, the prosecution in all it's glory signed off on it.

The issue of the raised fist and interview with the female black juror goes back to my point. They made all of America believe that the case and ultimately his acquittal was about race when it absolutely was not. Disgusting and very irresponsible when you have the entire country watching.

 

[Texas Ace]

The documentary is what I watched. And, I agree the jury was going to be very tough to get past. And, the prosecution in all it's glory signed off on it.

The issue of the raised fist and interview with the female black juror goes back to my point. They made all of America believe that the case and ultimately his acquittal was about race when it absolutely was not. Disgusting and very irresponsible when you have the entire country watching.

Again, it's hard not to push that angle when all of the wrongdoing blacks had suffered in L.A. WAS about race. It's always been about race when it came to blacks.

It's easy for you and I to know that OJ was just a guilty murderer and his being the #1 suspect had nothing to do with race. But if you're 40 year old black person who had been through all the stuff in L.A. in the 60's, 70's, 80's, etc. And you have seen many instances of innocent blacks being framed or setup to look guilty and not given a fair shake, then how can you NOT at least consider that it could be happening in this instance?

Most people in the black community had zero trust for the justice system at that time so you have to take that into consideration when you say that America was made to believe it was about race. For many people, it already was even before his defense team brought that angle into the trial.

 

[Cotton]

Again, it's hard not to push that angle when all of the wrongdoing blacks had suffered in L.A. WAS about race. It's always been about race when it came to blacks.

It's easy for you and I to know that OJ was just a guilty murderer and his being the #1 suspect had nothing to do with race. But if you're 40 year old black person who had been through all the stuff in L.A. in the 60's, 70's, 80's, etc. And you have seen many instances of innocent blacks being framed or setup to look guilty and not given a fair shake, then how can you NOT at least consider that it could be happening in this instance?

Most people in the black community had zero trust for the justice system at that time so you have to take that into consideration when you say that America was made to believe it was about race. For many people, it already was even before his defense team brought that angle into the trial.

I think that's very fair when you're talking about the viewpoint of Joe Public. I'm more angry about how the defense exploited the race card than how Joe Public viewed it.

 

[1bigfan13]

And this is why I think the prosecution gets too much crap over that verdict.

Yes, they didn't do the best job possible, and they made their share of mistakes, but my goodness......the evidence was so overwhelmingly against OJ that it should have been an open and shut case.

The biggest problem is that the majority of that jury had pretty much made up their minds from the beginning that OJ was either innocent or that they weren't going to give the justice system this one after all they had been through.

I think the most realistic positive-ish outcome the prosecution could have hoped for was a hung jury/mistrial.

I mentioned before in another thread that discussed ESPN's 30 for 30 on OJ, the climate of the nation and decades of mistrust in law enforcement and the judicial system in southern California helped shape the opinion of minorities who were on that jury.

If you recall, the Rodney King beating and subsequent not guilty verdict for the officers involved was still very fresh in people’s minds. Plus you had law enforcement using the “war against drugs” as an excuse to harass poor minorities. Those folks from LA had dealt with law enforcement abusing their authority for decades. They either dealt with it first-hand, had friends and family impacted by it, or saw it in the news regularly.

The ESPN documentary also told the stories of several other instances where law enforcement and the judicial system failed the black communities. Most of the instances were regional-level stories, so they didn’t receive the national media attention that King’s case drew. But obviously the people living in southern California were fully aware of all of those incidents. And this wasn’t just in the 1950s & 1960s where it was commonplace to treat blacks like that. The documentary highlighted incidents from the late-80s and early-90s as well.

I say all that to make this point……when it was discovered that Furman had a history of making racist statements and that he possibly planted evidence, from the jurors’ perspective, the idea that he would tamper with the investigation wasn’t too far-fetched. It played perfectly into their deeply engrained perspective that LAPD couldn’t be trusted.

 

[Texas Ace]

I say all that to make this point……when it was discovered that Furman had a history of making racist statements and that he possibly planted evidence, from the jurors’ perspective, the idea that he would tamper with the investigation wasn’t too far-fetched. It played perfectly into their deeply engrained perspective that LAPD couldn’t be trusted.

I agree, and that's the point I was making to Iamtdg.

After all the injustices, the mistreatment, and the harassment, there were already plenty of people who did not trust the justice system and the L.A.P.D. in particular, and that was long before Johnnie Cochran used the race angle to his advantage.

Black citizens in L.A. didn't need to have that pushed into their faces because it had already been in their minds long before OJ ever got into any trouble.

That police chief from those eras was one of the most despicable people in the documentary. He had no sympathy whatsoever with the black community and the guy seemed like quite the racist himself. The guy almost found it funny that blacks were being treated the way they were.

It's a shame that it came at the cost of innocent people lives and their families pain, but the OJ verdict was a result of systematic racism that was not only allowed to go on for so long, it was encouraged. As Malcom X infamously said when JFK was assassinated, the chickens had come home to roost.

 

[Texas Ace]

Also, I do think that Cochran honestly thought OJ could be innocent when he took on the trial. After all he had seen and experienced with the justice system in L.A., I think he honestly did think there was a possibility that OJ was being framed or setup to some extent.

I don't know if he went to his grave feeling that way, but I think when he initially took on the case, I do believe he genuinely thought there could be some foul play at work.

 

[townsend]

It sucks that a POS who completely abandoned the black community got to leverage their suffering into a get out of jail free card.

 

[1bigfan13]

It sucks that a POS who completely abandoned the black community got to leverage their suffering into a get out of jail free card.

That’s a great point. I think if the black community were aware back then that OJ had practically turned his back on them he probably wouldn’t have received their support. Hell, he may have even been convicted of murder in spite of all the built of tension.

The funny part was seeing OJ finally try to embrace black culture only after white America had turned their back on him. Once that happened OJ started hanging with black friends, started going to black churches, etc…..things that he’d rarely do prior to the murder trial.

 

[L.T. Fan]

Again, it's hard not to push that angle when all of the wrongdoing blacks had suffered in L.A. WAS about race. It's always been about race when it came to blacks.

It's easy for you and I to know that OJ was just a guilty murderer and his being the #1 suspect had nothing to do with race. But if you're 40 year old black person who had been through all the stuff in L.A. in the 60's, 70's, 80's, etc. And you have seen many instances of innocent blacks being framed or setup to look guilty and not given a fair shake, then how can you NOT at least consider that it could be happening in this instance?

Most people in the black community had zero trust for the justice system at that time so you have to take that into consideration when you say that America was made to believe it was about race. For many people, it already was even before his defense team brought that angle into the trial.

It still falls under the category of two wrongs make a right. That same theme is now the seemingly preferred method to operate by in most any contraversary and I believe it is wrong.

 

[Texas Ace]

It sucks that a POS who completely abandoned the black community got to leverage their suffering into a get out of jail free card.

That’s a great point. I think if the black community were aware back then that OJ had practically turned his back on them he probably wouldn’t have received their support. Hell, he may have even been convicted of murder in spite of all the built of tension.

The funny part was seeing OJ finally try to embrace black culture only after white America had turned their back on him. Once that happened OJ started hanging with black friends, started going to black churches, etc…..things that he’d rarely do prior to the murder trial.

This is a very interesting point because while I'm sure some would regret their support of him, I think most would have done it all over again because most members of the black community were supporting both the idea of a black person finally being on the winning side of the justice system, and whites finally getting a taste of what it was like to see the justice system fail them moreso than supporting Simpson himself.

I am curious to know what the numbers would be like if they polled people today from L.A. who supported him back then to see how many would've done it differently.

Another interesting thing to consider on this point is that OJ himself was initially against the race thing. He always said he didn't see himself as a black man. So when Robert Shapiro, not Johnnie Cochran, decided to use this angle to their advantage, OJ initially was not in favor of it.

It was the inclusion of Cochran onto the team followed by Cochran convincing OJ that this was his best shot to win that ultimately led to OJ accepting this strategy from his team.

 

[Texas Ace]

It still falls under the category of two wrongs make a right. That same theme is now the seemingly preferred method to operate by in most any contraversary and I believe it is wrong.

It absolutely is two wrongs making a right, but that wasn't the point I was discussing.

I was merely explaining to Iamtdg why I believed that not involving race in this case was practically impossible for the defense.

 

[skidadl]

A few years back we had a cop in our church that moved here from Southern California. He got extremely depressed and almost drank himself to death. It was mosty over all of the violence and terrible stuff he witnessed and was part of. Basically, it was so bad in the streets that the climate between cops and citizens was outright hostile daily. He said he didn't d lots of bad things and couldn't stand himself anymore.

 

[Texas Ace]

So what do you guys think happened that night?

Do you guys think he went alone with the intention of killing her? Or did something happen and he decided to do it there?

There's no question he killed them both, but he's said various things to people close to him at different times.

He'd say things like "If I did it, I couldn't have acted alone" "Nicole would still be alive if she hadn't come out with a knife" etc.

All of it could just be OJ playing this game since it's been clear since he got off that the entire thing has been one big joke to him, but it is interesting to think about what exactly happened that night.