A Football Life: Great Wall of Dallas

[Cotton]

Nope.

Absolutely nope.

 

[Smitty]

Which years are you referring to?

Again, it is inaccurate to refer to Emmitt's dominant lines as if they performed to one elite standard his entire career.

I would say from 1991-1998 or so.

 

[Smitty]

Smitty is insinuating that Romo is an All-Timer at QB because our OL is horrific.

Imagine if Romo had an above average OL.

Yes, I agree.

If we had a great OL, this offense would have been amazing over the past 7 years or so.

It's one of the reasons why it was so stupid not to invest in Carl Nicks and David DeCastro when we had the chance.

 

[Cotton]

I would say from 1991-1998 or so.

You were like 8 in 1991.

 

[Clay_Allison]

I wouldn't say that. Two completely different sets of circumstances. Consider if the two guys switched spots.

I think if Troy was asked to wing it, he could have lit up the stat sheet. I'm not so sure Romo could have played as well as Troy did in the precision, controlled way he was asked to. And been nearly as surgical as Aikman was.

Troy was awful as soon as his protection stopped being elite. He couldn't have numbers above the Mendoza line with any of Tony's lines. He couldn't average more than 12 games a year either because of concussions.

 

[Clay_Allison]

I would say from 1991-1998 or so.

Bullshit, 96, 97, and 98 those lines were barely above average. Nate ballooned up to 400 pounds, Erik Williams was never the same after the car wreck and Tuinei just flat out got old. There was one great player on those lines, period.

 

[L.T. Fan]

Troy was awful as soon as his protection stopped being elite. He couldn't have numbers above the Mendoza line with any of Tony's lines. He couldn't average more than 12 games a year either because of concussions.

Yep. That and back problems. Somehow people have forgotten that Aikman took a beating his last three years. I was there so I remember it well. His glory days were gone after 96.

 

[Genghis Khan]

I would say from 1991-1998 or so.

And you would be wrong.

 

[Genghis Khan]

Bullshit, 96, 97, and 98 those lines were barely above average. Nate ballooned up to 400 pounds, Erik Williams was never the same after the car wreck and Tuinei just flat out got old. There was one great player on those lines, period.

Correct.

 

[Smitty]

Correct.

It's not "correct," -- by 1998 they may no longer have been All Timer great but they were still among the best in the league.

 

[Genghis Khan]

It's not "correct," -- by 1998 they may no longer have been All Timer great but they were still among the best in the league.

Started multiple games between 96-98:

George Hegamin, John Flannery, Clay Shiver, Flozell Adams.

Ray Donaldson was 38 or so. Tuinei was over 36. Newton was in his upper 30s. And as Clay said, Eric Williams was a shell of his former self after the accident.

Clay Shiver started 2 seasons at center during that stretch. Hegamin started games at left tackle. Left. Tackle.

"among the best in the league."

 

[boozeman]

Started multiple games between 96-98:

George Hegamin, John Flannery, Clay Shiver, Flozell Adams.

Ray Donaldson was 38 or so. Tuinei was over 36. Newton was in his upper 30s. And as Clay said, Eric Williams was a shell of his former self after the accident.

Clay Shiver started 2 seasons at center during that stretch. Hegamin started games at left tackle. Left. Tackle.

"among the best in the league."

His monster years with 1700 yards etc. were with the line that will be profiled.

Here are Emmitt's totals after the line started falling apart...

1996 - 1204 - Tuinei, Newton, Donaldson, Allen, Williams
1997 - 1074 - Hegamin, Newton, Shiver, Allen, Williams
1998 - 1332 - Allen, Newton, Shiver, Adams, Williams

His best year in that era was 1999 when he had 1397 with Allen, Newton, Stepnoski, McIver, Williams.

2000 - 1203 - Adams, Allen, Stepnoski, Page, Williams
2001 - 1021 - Adams, Allen, Stepnoski, Garmon, Page
2002 - 975 - Adams, Tucker, Walter, Gurode, Page

Was he great? Sure. But to pretend he was beyond great and thinking he had just horrible lines late in his career is disingenuous.

With the exception of the couple of Clay Shiver years, I think most of us would take those lines and probably have a 1000-1200 yard back.

 

[data]

Irvin should've read this thread before throat slashing McIver

 

[Smitty]

His monster years with 1700 yards etc. were with the line that will be profiled.

Here are Emmitt's totals after the line started falling apart...

1996 - 1204 - Tuinei, Newton, Donaldson, Allen, Williams
1997 - 1074 - Hegamin, Newton, Shiver, Allen, Williams
1998 - 1332 - Allen, Newton, Shiver, Adams, Williams

His best year in that era was 1999 when he had 1397 with Allen, Newton, Stepnoski, McIver, Williams.

2000 - 1203 - Adams, Allen, Stepnoski, Page, Williams
2001 - 1021 - Adams, Allen, Stepnoski, Garmon, Page
2002 - 975 - Adams, Tucker, Walter, Gurode, Page

Was he great? Sure. But to pretend he was beyond great and thinking he had just horrible lines late in his career is disingenuous.

With the exception of the couple of Clay Shiver years, I think most of us would take those lines and probably have a 1000-1200 yard back.

Yup.

 

[Smitty]

Also, Williams was a "shell" of his former self in the sense that he was every bit as good or better than Larry Allen -- the best offensive lineman of the 90s -- before his injury, and that after the injury, he was merely a Pro Bowler. The guy was still an All Pro in 1995 and 1996.

Not Pro Bowler. All Pro.

Shiver was by far the biggest weak link on that line but Newton and Tuinei remained very solid players. Still one of the better lines in the league right up until around 2000 I'd say. By 2002 the line was garbage as Larry Allen was no longer great, just good, and the only other solid player on the line was Adams.

 

[Genghis Khan]

His monster years with 1700 yards etc. were with the line that will be profiled.

Here are Emmitt's totals after the line started falling apart...

1996 - 1204 - Tuinei, Newton, Donaldson, Allen, Williams
1997 - 1074 - Hegamin, Newton, Shiver, Allen, Williams
1998 - 1332 - Allen, Newton, Shiver, Adams, Williams

His best year in that era was 1999 when he had 1397 with Allen, Newton, Stepnoski, McIver, Williams.

2000 - 1203 - Adams, Allen, Stepnoski, Page, Williams
2001 - 1021 - Adams, Allen, Stepnoski, Garmon, Page
2002 - 975 - Adams, Tucker, Walter, Gurode, Page

Was he great? Sure. But to pretend he was beyond great and thinking he had just horrible lines late in his career is disingenuous.

With the exception of the couple of Clay Shiver years, I think most of us would take those lines and probably have a 1000-1200 yard back.

The most cogent argument on the other side in this thread. props.

I don't think anyone is saying he was "beyond" great or that those lines later in his career were horrible.

But those later lines were good at best, maybe even mediocre, and certainly not measurably better than the lines of his contemporaries - and in some cases worse (Terrell Davis for example). and he ran behind those good lines much more often than he ran behind the all timer line - maybe twice as much.

Emmitt slowed down a little during those later years, and that's telling. But what does it tell? Emmitt was also aging during those years. It's extremely common for a RB to slow down as he hits 30. and the team was falling apart around him. The coaching wasn't as good and Gailey in particular was more passing oriented Defenses were keying on him. We had Irvin And that's about it in the passing game. By 99 we didnt even have that, and by 2000 we didn't have a QB either.

I think the 98 and 99 seasons may have been his most impressive. 1300 yards at that age with that supportiing cast.

I think the point is that the 5 or so years that Emmitt ran behind an all-timer line didn't make him. He wasnt putting ridiculous numbers in that time period. Great, sure. But I don't think he ever had more than 1800ish. Barry sanders was doing the same thing in that period and plenty of guys have had seasons in that range.

What really set Emmitt apart was his durability and especially his longevity. It was precisely those later years when the line was mediocre/good that set Emmitt apart.

 

[Genghis Khan]

Also, Williams was a "shell" of his former self in the sense that he was every bit as good or better than Larry Allen -- the best offensive lineman of the 90s -- before his injury, and that after the injury, he was merely a Pro Bowler. The guy was still an All Pro in 1995 and 1996.

Not Pro Bowler. All Pro.

Shiver was by far the biggest weak link on that line but Newton and Tuinei remained very solid players. Still one of the better lines in the league right up until around 2000 I'd say. By 2002 the line was garbage as Larry Allen was no longer great, just good, and the only other solid player on the line was Adams.

You are wrong about Williams. After the injury he was getting by on guile and nastiness. I remember it well. He would smack guys around and hold and grab frequently.

There's a reason why he won't sniff the HOF. He was an all-timer level talent prior to the accident. He fell off so hard he's not even in the discussion for the hall. He was a shell of his former self.

You are also ever selling the rest of them. Yes, shiver was the worst. That doesn't mean everybody else was good. McIver? Solomon Page? Hegamin? Come on. These guys were not good.

 

[data]

McIver? Solomon Page? Hegamin? Come on. These guys were n

Racist

 

[Genghis Khan]

The point is - just based on logic - if you are going to argue that Emmitt had the production he did because of an all-timer line, you have to take into consideration that the line was only an all timer for about five seasons.

If you acknowledge the obvious - that it wasnt nearly as good post 96, even if we entertain the notion that it was still among the leagues best at the time - it was not all-timer, which means Emmitt did not have any special advantage of playing behind a special line.

If you are arguing that Emmitt's line was still great in the mid-late 90s (debatable, btw), well Eric Dickerson had a great line, and so did Faulk, and Harris, and Brown, and Dorsett, and Sanders, and on and on ad nauseum. Just about Every player who puts up great numbers was aided by teammates who helped make it happen.

If a line "made" anyone, it is guys like Shaun Alexander, jamaal Lewis and Terrell Davis.

 

[Genghis Khan]

Racist