Religion thread...

[townsend]

I read several books by Rob Bell a few years back that I enjoyed quite a bit.

It's how I started along my path to pseudo universalist agnosticism. Which is probably why Bell is largely despised among evangelicals.

He talks about how the concepts of the lamb's blood and new covenant were place holders for a concept so big there was no way to quantify it.

A union with humanity to divinity. That seeks to improve humanity, not just forgive it. I can get behind that shit. Because I like to believe it, and I don't have to believe it. If it turns out to be wrong, no one was hurt.

 

[skidadl]

Real talk, I have no issue with J Dawg or his contributions to the New Testament. I have some issue with Saul the Christian killer who saw which direction the wind was blowing.

To me he's the Brigham Young of Christianity who inserted most of the doctrines of sin, hell, and Authoritarianism into Christianity. Seems weird to me that a guy whose previous job titles included persecuter and executor gets to wag his finger at the fucking Corinthians for all the butt stuff they're into.

Getting back to my views on Christianity, I'm presently as invested in the basic teachings of Christ as I ever was. But damn there's a lot of well deserved resentment seen by the church, and its alignment to the present iteration of the right wing has caused it to be as unapologetic as ever.

I got nothing wrong with a God that might exist. I just think the worst people on earth are his self appointed representatives.

Nice.


That's an interesting take on Paul. I see his story like a bunch of stories of redemption. He was a real pain in he ass until he had and encounter with Jesus, which changed him from a murder and persecutor into a follower. Pretty much par for the course in the Christian faith. Further, Paul was called to the Gentile specifically where his role was to show the non-Jews that Jesus bridged the gap for them to take part in the Abrahamic Covenant. Before, Gentiles were see as unreadable by God. He also rebuked his followers for referring back to the law after they had been set free from it. Basically, folks were getting free from all of the rituals, traditions and applicable things that folks were required to do to be justified fell under the influence of the "religious" folks. They were free but were pressured by culture to practice useless religion (sound familiar?) in order to be accepted. That was no longer required. People were voluntarily going back to bondage. Paul was trying to set people free from all of that which flies in the face of your idea that he put more bondage on people. IMO

 

[skidadl]

He talks about how the concepts of the lamb's blood and new covenant were place holders for a concept so big there was no way to quantify it.

A union with humanity to divinity. That seeks to improve humanity, not just forgive it. I can get behind that shit. Because I like to believe it, and I don't have to believe it. If it turns out to be wrong, no one was hurt.

I think that is another important aspect of the faith that is missed. Unfortunately, many preach and believe a really one dimensional salvation. They miss the entire redemption of the whole man.

The new covenant was to restore the Abrahamic Covenant to believers. Not just Jews. So, that covenant is now available to all that believe. Which is pretty damn cool. The grace life encompasses your entire life to the level in which you are able to receive it.

God gave back authority to those who believe to control their own destiny. Or better stated, the destiny that God has for you. In practical application, I can say that I've seen dramatic changes in my life and well being and others as a result of this.

That's why I get annoyed (wrongly) when I see glass half empty attitudes or people who see "the man" as their enemy. I don't have the sense that my life is out of control. I feel at peace mostly and at ease because of a trust and a lack of striving.

 

[Cotton]

That's an interesting take on Paul. I see his story like a bunch of stories of redemption. He was a real pain in he ass until he had and encounter with Jesus, which changed him from a murder and persecutor into a follower. Pretty much par for the course in the Christian faith. Further, Paul was called to the Gentile specifically where his role was to show the non-Jews that Jesus bridged the gap for them to take part in the Abrahamic Covenant. Before, Gentiles were see as unreadable by God. He also rebuked his followers for referring back to the law after they had been set free from it. Basically, folks were getting free from all of the rituals, traditions and applicable things that folks were required to do to be justified fell under the influence of the "religious" folks. They were free but were pressured by culture to practice useless religion (sound familiar?) in order to be accepted. That was no longer required. People were voluntarily going back to bondage. Paul was trying to set people free from all of that which flies in the face of your idea that he put more bondage on people. IMO

CSB

 

[Cotton]

I think that is another important aspect of the faith that is missed. Unfortunately, many preach and believe a really one dimensional salvation. They miss the entire redemption of the whole man.

The new covenant was to restore the Abrahamic Covenant to believers. Not just Jews. So, that covenant is now available to all that believe. Which is pretty damn cool. The grace life encompasses your entire life to the level in which you are able to receive it.

God gave back authority to those who believe to control their own destiny. Or better stated, the destiny that God has for you. In practical application, I can say that I've seen dramatic changes in my life and well being and others as a result of this.

That's why I get annoyed (wrongly) when I see glass half empty attitudes or people who see "the man" as their enemy. I don't have the sense that my life is out of control. I feel at peace mostly and at ease because of a trust and a lack of striving.

The faith you have is a blessing. I have told you this before, but I will restate it. I have utmost respect for those that can have full-on unwavering faith. My dad being the most prominent example. I'm sure it's not easy to give yourself up fully to an unknown that (possibly) affects your soul's existence.

I just can't do it. I have too many questions, which is why you and I and others have these debates. I started this thread because you and I have had some great talks about this shit in the past, and always knew it would lead to more. Townsend as killed it with those last few comments, and made me think, which (to me) is what is cool about this subject.

 

[skidadl]

CSB

I think so.

It pretty much puts to rest the idea of self-righteousness that we see most Christians displaying these days. Jesus pretty much made the religious people really angry.

Zacchaeus - despicable man, despised by everyone, thief, predator...pretty much scum - he wanted redemption in a bad way. Jesus gave it to him, left the religious folks and went to stay at his house. All of the religious people were angry at Jesus.

Whores - completely forgave and restored them. Religious people were angry

Paul - murderer that persecuted Christians. Jesus restored him and put him in charge.

Modern day Christians are no different than the religious people then. They've got it backwards. They think that since they have God they are awesome and everyone else sucks. That is a terrible religious attitude. The way it really works is that I/we suck, we need a savior and therefore we still aren't awesome but thankfully we have a redeemer. That pretty much eliminates god hates fags signs and being out front fighting the cultural war. That is NOT the gospel.

If you don't need redeemed then keep on walking. Jesus is for people who know that they have a need to be redeemed.

 

[skidadl]

The faith you have is a blessing. I have told you this before, but I will restate it. I have utmost respect for those that can have full-on unwavering faith. My dad being the most prominent example. I'm sure it's not easy to give yourself up fully to an unknown that (possibly) affects your soul's existence.

I just can't do it. I have too many questions, which is why you and I and others have these debates. I started this thread because you and I have had some great talks about this shit in the past, and always knew it would lead to more. Townsend as killed it with those last few comments, and made me think, which (to me) is what is cool about this subject.

I get what you are saying. Yes, faith and all of that but also a life redeemed. That's the deal. I know you see it as a pure faith but I also have an experience. A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument.

True story, stay with me here...I did not believe that Jesus was anyone I wanted to get to know. You know why? Because of what had been passed down to me. I had an interpretation according to what I was taught. Which was that God was gonna get me because I sucked. I figured if that was true I was going to go down swinging. f it, I knew I was a heathen. Live it up!

The funny thing is that I got back into the bible because some Jehovah Witness was coming to my house. I was a prideful punk so I let him in and debated with him for 2-3 hours once a week. In order to do that I needed ammo, right? I wasn't a Christian but I damn sure wasn't giving into this dude. So I picked up the bible and read the new testament in a couple of weeks. I was like, hmmm, this Jesus dude doesn't sound like anyone that I've known before. So I started reading it. Basically I saw that my pre-judgment was based on what I'd heard and not what I'd read.



That's your problem, Cotton. You've had too much religion. I feel for you. Hell, theologically you are probably more religious than me. What I mean is that you've got these ideas planted down in you that are based on YOUR experience. F all of that, dude. Even if it is just out of curiosity and for academic reasons I'd say read the damn new testament. Flush what you've been taught out of the window. Don't read it with those voices in your head. Read it for what it is and discover what it really says. I think that every American should just for pure academic reasons. It is pretty pivotal in our society. People should know what is says.

 

[Cotton]

I get what you are saying. Yes, faith and all of that but also a life redeemed. That's the deal. I know you see it as a pure faith but I also have an experience. A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument.

True story, stay with me here...I did not believe that Jesus was anyone I wanted to get to know. You know why? Because of what had been passed down to me. I had an interpretation according to what I was taught. Which was that God was gonna get me because I sucked. I figured if that was true I was going to go down swinging. f it, I knew I was a heathen. Live it up!

The funny thing is that I got back into the bible because some Jehovah Witness was coming to my house. I was a prideful punk so I let him in and debated with him for 2-3 hours once a week. In order to do that I needed ammo, right? I wasn't a Christian but I damn sure wasn't giving into this dude. So I picked up the bible and read the new testament in a couple of weeks. I was like, hmmm, this Jesus dude doesn't sound like anyone that I've known before. So I started reading it. Basically I saw that my pre-judgment was based on what I'd heard and not what I'd read.



That's your problem, Cotton. You've had too much religion. I feel for you. Hell, theologically you are probably more religious than me. What I mean is that you've got these ideas planted down in you that are based on YOUR experience. F all of that, dude. Even if it is just out of curiosity and for academic reasons I'd say read the damn new testament. Flush what you've been taught out of the window. Don't read it with those voices in your head. Read it for what it is and discover what it really says. I think that every American should just for pure academic reasons. It is pretty pivotal in our society. People should know what is says.

Good post. I don't have time to reply to this tonight and give this post its due diligence tonight. I will check back hopefully tomorrow night and see what I can do to continue this. Have always respected your views. Just never could follow the book that push them. Be back tomorrow.

 

[BipolarFuk]

 

[Cotton]

It's hard to compare languages like this. Words in other languages translating to English are sometimes skewed in translation.

 

[jsmith6919]

10,007 Hard words in the Bible?
Making its way into the Christian vs. Muslim debate circles is an interesting chart that depicts the Bible as showing more hard words than the Quran. Is this MEME an accurate representation of the number of hard words [sic]?

Now for the Bible KJV (search per http://www.biblegateway.com)

Fire= 515 Results
Burn= 606 Results ‎
Hell= 54 Results
Punish= 72 Results ‎
Torture= 1 Result

Total =515+606+54+72+1=1248

Fear= 501 Results ‎
Terror= 44 Results ‎
Horrify=0 Results
Terrify= 4Results ‎

Total=501+44+0+4=549

Anger= 229 Results ‎
Despise= 113 Results ‎
Detest= 7 Results
Hate= 179 Results
Contempt= 15 Results ‎
Scorn= 41 Results ‎
Slave= 2 Results
Wrath= 197 Results ‎

Total=229+113+7+179+15+41+2+197=783

Attack= 0 Results
Battle= 171 Results ‎
Fight= 111 Results
Force= 42 Results
War= 346 Results
Invade= 7 Results ‎
Oppress= 110 Results
Raid= 0 Results
Violence= 56 Results ‎

Total= 0+171+111+42+346+7+110+0+56=843

Destroy= 433 Results
Murder=37 Results ‎
Kill= 208 Results
Slay= 142 Results

Total=433+37+208+142=820

Total of hard words [sic]

Total=1248+549+783+843+820=4243

Forgive= 95 Results
Hope= 133 Results
Mercy= 262 Results
Reward= 103 Results

Total=95+133+262+103=593



So in essence, it is most difficult to distinguish where the data for this meme comes from. As you see according to the results (check for yourself to verify), only 4,423 hard words for the KJV Bible, not 10,007. Granted there are supposedly over 31,000+ (31,102) verses of the KJV Bible over the 6346 verses within the Quran. The KJV has 24,756 more verses than the Quran. That would be 490.1% more verses in the KJV than in the Quran. (perhaps a new chart may follow later). Another way to think of this is the KJV has 4.901 times more verses than the Quran. So this taken into account, the Quran would have more significance of the hard words in correlation. With a multiplication factor of 4.901. Granted some of these terms may not reflect a negative connotation, but just for the sake of verifying the meme I chose to keep in accordance to just the words.

Lets verify the Original meme for correct representation of its claims. Data is derived from the results from a search using Quran.com


Fire= Results 272 for fire
Burn=Results 75 for burn
Hell=Results 223 for hell‎
Punish=Results 563 for punish‎
Torture=Results 10 for torture

Total =272+75+223+563+10=1143

Fear= Results 380 for fear‎
Terror= Results 32 for terror‎
Horrify= Results 35 for horrify
Terrify= Results 6 for terrify‎

Total=380+32+35+6=453

Anger= Results 27 for Anger‎
Despise= Results 18 for Despise‎
Detest= Results 20 for detest
Hate= Results 43 for hate
Contempt= Results 16 for contempt‎
Scorn= Results 25 for scorn‎
Slave= Results 160 for slave
Wrath= Results 70 for wrath‎

Total=27+18+20+43+16+25+160+70=379

Attack= Results 21 for attack
Battle= Results 38 for battle‎
Fight= Results 94 for fight‎
Force= Results 82 for force
War= Results 236 for war
Invade= Results 43 for invade‎
Oppress= Results 62 for oppress
Raid= Results 4 for raid
Violence= Results 33 for violence‎

Total=21+38+94+82+236+43+62+4+33=613

Destroy= Results 129 for destroy
Murder=Results 11 for murder‎
Kill= Results 102 for kill
Slay= Results 46 for slay

Total=129+11+102+46=288

Total of hard words [sic]
Total=1143+453+379+613+288=2876

Forgive= Results 237 for forgive
Hope= Results 61 for hope
Mercy= Results 343 for mercy
Reward= Results 271 for reward

Total=237+61+343+271=912

So the Quran has 2,876 hard words, not so much 1143 words using a search of terms in Quran.com, again where is the data for the meme claiming 10,007 hard words?

Here is a chart just for Hard Words in the Quran verses the KJV NT. The Number of Quran verses = 6346, for the KJV New Testament there are a total number of 7957 which is close to the number of verses in the Quran.

Data for the KJV NT verses (Using e-sword program)



Keyword
Fire=79
Burn=8
Hell=23
Punish=1
Torture=0
Total=111

Fear=78
Terror=3
Horrify=0
Terrify=1
Total= 82

Anger=5
Despise=13
Detest=0
Hate=16
Contempt=0
Scorn=3
Slave= 0
Wrath=45
Total=82

Attack=0
Battle=5
Fight=10
Force=4
War=15
Invade=0
Oppress=0
Raid=0
Violence=8
Total=42

Destroy=31
Murder=5
Kill=44
Slay=7
Total= 87

HardWords=404


KJV verse count
Source:
http://amazingbibletimeline.com/bible_questions/q10_bible_facts_statistics/

 

[L.T. Fan]

Shazam!

 

[skidadl]

 

[BipolarFuk]

 

[Clay_Allison]

More meme lies from the meme liar.

 

[BipolarFuk]

 

[Cowboysrock55]

If a business did that I'd say good for them!

 

[Clay_Allison]

If a business did that I'd say good for them!

As the "for lease" sign is being put up in the window.

 

[skidadl]

Actually that is pretty funny.

 

[skidadl]

I do find it really funny when a fat preacher starts railing against the gays.