Religion thread...

[Cotton]

Did ya happen to read my reply before?

Incest was necessary at one point. And then it wasn't. You didn't like that answer?

So, it was okay because it was convenient and helpful, and then it wasn't because it was all of a sudden, not? No, I do not like that answer. And it does not help in my doubts about the bible's validity.

 

[Cotton]

I mean why not just make two couples when you started humanity? He knew (he is the all knowing after all) that he wasn't going to want incest to be accepted, so why corrupt the sanctity of family in the beginning? He is the magic man, so why slur the image right from the beginning when it easily could have been avoided?

Why not take more than just one family on the ark? You're telling me that every other single human on the planet at the time was so corrupt they had to die? C'mon.

 

[skidadl]

And the whole old testament versus new testament argument is for the birds. Were the early christians just trying to demonstrate how far we have come as mankind? If not, why even include it in the bible if you are just going to constantly reject it as "Oh, that before jesus, dumbass!"

Do you want an answer? I can't tell. It just seems like you are bitching about it in general.

The old testament represented one covenant. As a matter of fact, it foretold of Jesus and how that would change things. They weren't in opposition to one another. As a matter of fact, there's a bunch stuff that is really great teaching in the old testament. Just like lots of books that you read. It doesn't mean that you have to either accept all or none. Do you do that to all books that you read that were meant to help?

The old testament is absolutely 100% necessary to tell the story and see how we got to where we are. It shows the entire story of redemption and reconciliation to God. Let's not confuse what the bible is for here. For some, it is a place to place their anger for their own life struggles to unanswered questions. I'm over that. If you don't need redeemed then just walk on by. You don't need it, so reject it. If you do without a shadow of a doubt then why ever worry about it? I don't struggle with anorexia so I never think about it.

I really don't know why it is so hard to understand. One book is a book of laws. Those laws pointed to the depravity of man and a need for a saviour. The other book was a book of grace. It unfolded the plan for redemption. The new testament and the arrival of Jesus made it unnecessary to earn your own justification and longer. Thankfully it was done once and for all. At that point the ceremonies, rituals, laws and covenants were no longer needed for justification. So the ultimate obedience cancelled out the need for our effort to be justified. Instead of being hostile over it, it would seen that being thankful for it makes more sense, but that is just me.

 

[skidadl]

I mean why not just make two couples when you started humanity? He knew (he is the all knowing after all) that he wasn't going to want incest to be accepted, so why corrupt the sanctity of family in the beginning? He is the magic man, so why slur the image right from the beginning when it easily could have been avoided?

Why not take more than just one family on the ark? You're telling me that every other single human on the planet at the time was so corrupt they had to die? C'mon.

1 . There wasn't a such thing as sin until the fall. There was no corruptness on the earth.

2. Types and shadows. If you read the bible, you will see that it is littered with them.

Virginity - a type and shadow of Jesus. A marriage covenant is made in blood. So is the covenant of Jesus.
The flood - a type shadow of the same.
There are literally MANY of those that all pointed to the same place --- the coming of Jesus.

 

[Cotton]

Do you want an answer? I can't tell. It just seems like you are bitching about it in general.

The old testament represented one covenant. As a matter of fact, it foretold of Jesus and how that would change things. They weren't in opposition to one another. As a matter of fact, there's a bunch stuff that is really great teaching in the old testament. Just like lots of books that you read. It doesn't mean that you have to either accept all or none. Do you do that to all books that you read that were meant to help?

The old testament is absolutely 100% necessary to tell the story and see how we got to where we are. It shows the entire story of redemption and reconciliation to God. Let's not confuse what the bible is for here. For some, it is a place to place their anger for their own life struggles to unanswered questions. I'm over that. If you don't need redeemed then just walk on by. You don't need it, so reject it. If you do without a shadow of a doubt then why ever worry about it? I don't struggle with anorexia so I never think about it.

I really don't know why it is so hard to understand. One book is a book of laws. Those laws pointed to the depravity of man and a need for a saviour. The other book was a book of grace. It unfolded the plan for redemption. The new testament and the arrival of Jesus made it unnecessary to earn your own justification and longer. Thankfully it was done once and for all. At that point the ceremonies, rituals, laws and covenants were no longer needed for justification. So the ultimate obedience cancelled out the need for our effort to be justified. Instead of being hostile over it, it would seen that being thankful for it makes more sense, but that is just me.

I do want answers, but your answers are the same answers I have heard my entire life, and they still don't make sense to me.

I understand the premise behind the bible, but you seem to be saying that some of it can be accepted, but you can also reject some of it. That is very interesting to me, and no I'm not taking a shot here. I was taught growing up that you had to accept it all, or you accept none of it. I actually could get behind your line of thinking easier than getting behind the all or nothing mentality. Mainly because there are things in the bible that absolutely can not be explained accept to say "You gotta have faith".

 

[skidadl]

So, it was okay because it was convenient and helpful, and then it wasn't because it was all of a sudden, not? No, I do not like that answer. And it does not help in my doubts about the bible's validity.

You are looking at this like a retard right now.

The bible (God) sees things as a whole. You are focused on single items. Basically He is the first CEO.


Let me ask you this:

Would you beat your kids ass for shitting his pants as a 1 year OLD? No. Would you beat your 13 year old's ass if he shit his pants at 13? Yes.


OHHHHHH SEEEE YOU CHANGED YOU MIND? BUUUUUSTED!!!!! WHY YOU CHANGE THE RULES?!

 

[Cotton]

1 . There wasn't a such thing as sin until the fall. There was no corruptness on the earth.

2. Types and shadows. If you read the bible, you will see that it is littered with them.

Virginity - a type and shadow of Jesus. A marriage covenant is made in blood. So is the covenant of Jesus.
The flood - a type shadow of the same.
There are literally MANY of those that all pointed to the same place --- the coming of Jesus.

Another thing I never got. No sin until the fall. So, it's like we didn't realize the sin until it was shown to us.

Reminds me of a comedy skit I once saw. It was an asian guy, and he had some Jehovah's Witness come to his door and tell him that he is going to hell if he doesn't accept Jesus Christ as his lord and savior. He asks the visitor's "well, I grew up in China and never knew. What happens if someone doesn't know this?". The JWs told him "Well, now you know!". He replies with "THEN WHY YOU TELL ME?!"

 

[Cotton]

You are looking at this like a retard right now.

The bible (God) sees things as a whole. You are focused on single items. Basically He is the first CEO.


Let me ask you this:

Would you beat your kids ass for shitting his pants as a 1 year OLD? No. Would you beat your 13 year old's ass if he shit his pants at 13? Yes.


OHHHHHH SEEEE YOU CHANGED YOU MIND? BUUUUUSTED!!!!! WHY YOU CHANGE THE RULES?!

Sorry, but that's a dumb comparison. God is the all freakin' knowing. He couldn't foresee that this might taint his cred? Not buying it.

 

[skidadl]

I do want answers, but your answers are the same answers I have heard my entire life, and they still don't make sense to me.

I understand the premise behind the bible, but you seem to be saying that some of it can be accepted, but you can also reject some of it. That is very interesting to me, and no I'm not taking a shot here. I was taught growing up that you had to accept it all, or you accept none of it. I actually could get behind your line of thinking easier than getting behind the all or nothing mentality. Mainly because there are things in the bible that absolutely can not be explained accept to say "You gotta have faith".

What you are saying isn't exactly what I am saying. I'm not saying to reject any part of it. I am saying that not all of it is for today. The bible actually confirms that, so I don't see how that is a contradiction. You are using tired old arguments without referencing the bible itself, which is common.

Also, earlier I was playing devils advocate and asking you why it is that you are good with accepting some parts of some books and not others without throwing the whole thing out but not with the bible.

 

[skidadl]

Sorry, but that's a dumb comparison. God is the all freakin' knowing. He couldn't foresee that this might taint his cred? Not buying it.

Why does it taint anything? I don't think He was concerned one bit if you were going to pick it apart years later. That isn't even the point of it. Why does the bible need to fit into your mindset? Why does it need to answer all of you questions?

That's the thing...you are not even using logic. Think about it, man. Times and seasons. That season was over so now for a new thing. You can apply it to 1,00000000000000 laws of nature right now. You don't question those because you can grasp it. It is when you cannot grasp something that it frustrates you. That doesn't mean that it isn't true.

Everything has a right time. Farming - you cultivate, plant, water and harvest. They all happen in different times. How many other examples are there? Millions.

 

[skidadl]

Another thing I never got. No sin until the fall. So, it's like we didn't realize the sin until it was shown to us.

Reminds me of a comedy skit I once saw. It was an asian guy, and he had some Jehovah's Witness come to his door and tell him that he is going to hell if he doesn't accept Jesus Christ as his lord and savior. He asks the visitor's "well, I grew up in China and never knew. What happens if someone doesn't know this?". The JWs told him "Well, now you know!". He replies with "THEN WHY YOU TELL ME?!"

That's actually pretty funny.

 

[Cotton]

What you are saying isn't exactly what I am saying. I'm not saying to reject any part of it. I am saying that not all of it is for today. The bible actually confirms that, so I don't see how that is a contradiction. You are using tired old arguments without referencing the bible itself, which is common.

I am using the bible against itself. Again, if he was the all-knowing why not eliminate all contradiction and make two couples in the beginning?

Also, earlier I was playing devils advocate and asking you why it is that you are good with accepting some parts of some books and not others without throwing the whole thing out but not with the bible.

Are you saying I should be comparing the bible to normal secular books? I would think you would hope I would hold it heads and shoulders above any other literature on the planet.

 

[Cotton]

Why does it taint anything? I don't think He was concerned one bit if you were going to pick it apart years later. That isn't even the point of it. Why does the bible need to fit into your mindset? Why does it need to answer all of you questions?

That's the thing...you are not even using logic. Think about it, man. Times and seasons. That season was over so now for a new thing. You can apply it to 1,00000000000000 laws of nature right now. You don't question those because you can grasp it. It is when you cannot grasp something that it frustrates you. That doesn't mean that it isn't true.

Everything has a right time. Farming - you cultivate, plant, water and harvest. They all happen in different times. How many other examples are there? Millions.

Exactly, so what happens when another new season dawns? Will we need a newer new testament to tell us what's now right and wrong, or did they finally get it right?

 

[Cotton]

That's actually pretty funny.

Yeah, it's hilarious. I will try to find it and post it.

 

[skidadl]

I am using the bible against itself. Again, if he was the all-knowing why not eliminate all contradiction and make two couples in the beginning?



Are you saying I should be comparing the bible to normal secular books? I would think you would hope I would hold it heads and shoulders above any other literature on the planet.

Sooooo be sure you never change how you handle your own kids as they grow lest you be in danger of being seen as contradicting yourself.

Law is necessary to show grace and freedom. It is 100% necessary to not let your son drink (at whatever age that is) because he doesn't fully understand it, cannot control it and other obvious factors. At some point you sit down and have a beer with him. Is that a contradiction?

If you read the old testament you will see that as time goes on more laws and regs were need just like the modern society that we live in. That isn't a contradiction in anyway, is it?

 

[Cotton]

Sooooo be sure you never change how you handle your own kids as they grow lest you be in danger of being seen as contradicting yourself.

Law is necessary to show grace and freedom. It is 100% necessary to not let your son drink (at whatever age that is) because he doesn't fully understand it, cannot control it and other obvious factors. At some point you sit down and have a beer with him. Is that a contradiction?

If you read the old testament you will see that as time goes on more laws and regs were need just like the modern society that we live in. That isn't a contradiction in anyway, is it?

Here is where your little analogy falls apart. I would never change the rights and wrongs I teach my kids. You are reaching by saying that I apply different rules to them as they grow. That's true, but the basic rights and wrongs never change. Incest is a basic right and wrong. Not comparable to the age at which I decide boy gets to start drinking. Like I said, it's not a very good comparison.

 

[skidadl]

Exactly, so what happens when another new season dawns? Will we need a newer new testament to tell us what's now right and wrong, or did they finally get it right?

Lookit, you don't have to believe the logic of the explanation but I'll try yo explain again. It would be cool if you just said something like, thats BS or I don't agree instead of pretending like I didn't explain it.

Going from the old to new testament wasn't a deal where it was like ooops we didn't think of that so we need to make some shit up in a hurry. It was part of the story all along. it didn't just come into the picture out of nowhere. I feel like that is a really major point that is being glazed over here and everywhere else.

I'll try again though. the bible foretold of what happened. Do you not understand that part. If you agree or think it is BS is fine. What you are missing is that it wasn't an afterthought. That makes it that much more compelling. You see it as waffling. Obviously you missed the part where all of it was prophesied. I've heard it before where folks are like, oh lookie here God changes His mind between the old and new testament. Yeah buddy, it was told that everything would change when Jesus came on the scene. Welcome to several thousands of years ago.

 

[skidadl]

Here is where your little analogy falls apart. I would never change the rights and wrongs I teach my kids. You are reaching by saying that I apply different rules to them as they grow. That's true, but the basic rights and wrongs never change. Incest is a basic right and wrong. Not comparable to the age at which I decide boy gets to start drinking. Like I said, it's not a very good comparison.

you are exactly right. I mean, in human terms that is. But from a global viewpoint you are dead wrong. What you want to do is put God in a box on your level, which is hilarious. You are demanding that He scale it down for you lest you reject Him. See how that seems backwards?

Arrogance. The downfall of man.

 

[skidadl]

i'm heading out for a few days with my wife to have unprotected sex. Don't know if I'll be able to engage at length or not. I'll pop in and make some smart ass comments when time allows.

Its been fun, cotton.


Peace

 

[L.T. Fan]

Frankly I don't see where incest was ever sanctioned. If anyone is referring to the species being promulgated in the beginning with Adam and Eve it would not fit there because the translation of Adam is actually man or mankind. There were other humans created evidenced by Cain' s departure and subsequent marriage.