Week 9 Game Day Chatter | Chiefs @ Cowboys | 11-5-2017

[Cowboysrock55]

Ahh, gotcha. I did watch the video. That is very interesting. And, I'm with Simp. Not all teams get away with this [STRIKE]hold [/STRIKE]hug technique.

The funny thing is that a pancake block has turned into an automatic hold for our guys these days. It's like any time the defender goes to the ground, the assumption is it must be a hold which is really sad and pathetic.

 

[UncleMilti]

I go back and forth on Prescott. Obviously it was a god send that as one QB was winding down his career we have seemingly found another who can keep winning.

But yeah, I do feel like eventually we are gonna need him to fling it around more often -- maybe in the 6 games that Elliott misses -- and I wonder if he'll be able to. You know Romo could win games that way, but also win games managing an effective running attack. I haven't seen Dak have to be the main focal point. I don't know if he's capable of throwing for 300 yards and 3 TDs every week. Yes, his TD to INT ratio is great, and he's great at limiting mistakes, but the running game gets him into the redzone and then he throws fades or slants to Beasley or Bryant.

When Prescott has to do the heavy lifting, will he be able to?

Tom Brady was very similar early in his career. Can Prescott turn that corner?

I agree with this.

I'm a little troubled by Daks inability to connect on the deep ball (when they actually try) this season.

Not sure whats going on there, but it certainly has not been there to at least try and back off the defenses. You can be certain Philly is going to come after Dak until he hits something down the field.

 

[data]

I agree with this.

I'm a little troubled by Daks inability to connect on the deep ball (when they actually try) this season.

Not sure whats going on there, but it certainly has not been there to at least try and back off the defenses. You can be certain Philly is going to come after Dak until he hits something down the field.

For reference, Brady's fourth year (2004 Pro Bowl season, SB champ and 14-2 record), he averaged 60.8% completion, 18/30 for 230 yards (7.7 YPA), 1.75 TDs, 0.88 INTs.

For only these 8 games in 2017, Dak is 62.9%, 20/32 for 227 yards (7.1 YPA), 2 TDs Passing, 0.5 INTs. With rushing, he's 251 yards per game and 2.5 TDs-per-game.

It's funny cuz I'm very concerned with Dak's passing ability, but looking at these stats, we're fucking spoiled. Dak doesn't throw many 25+ yard passes, but maybe it's balanced by him not throwing many <5 yards.

He's the Cris Carter of QBs...all he does is throw 1st downs.

 

[p1_]

I agree with this.

I'm a little troubled by Daks inability to connect on the deep ball (when they actually try) this season.

Not sure whats going on there, but it certainly has not been there to at least try and back off the defenses. You can be certain Philly is going to come after Dak until he hits something down the field.

You have to attribute some of that to the receivers (Dez, Terence Williams, Beasley, and Witten) not being any sort of vertical threat. The only one who seems to be able to do it is Butler.

 

[Rev]

You have to attribute some of that to the receivers (Dez, Terence Williams, Beasley, and Witten) not being any sort of vertical threat. The only one who seems to be able to do it is Butler.

Bingo. We need that speed WR.

 

[Texas Ace]

You have to attribute some of that to the receivers (Dez, Terence Williams, Beasley, and Witten) not being any sort of vertical threat. The only one who seems to be able to do it is Butler.

Bingo. We need that speed WR.

I'm sure that definitely plays a part, but as I said in the All-22 thread, playaction is also about the play design and fooling the opposition.

With a running game like ours, we should be hitting some of the deep balls to open targets but we're not. Why are defenses not being fooled?

If Andre Johnson in his prime can be that wide open so many times, I doubt it's because the defense is ignoring him or because he's just so fast he zoomed by them in the blink of an eye. No, him being miles open like that suggests the play design worked to fool the DBs into thinking they were either running the ball or going somewhere else with it.

So why are we struggling so much to connect on these plays if our running game is so good?

 

[lostxn]

I'm sure that definitely plays a part, but as I said in the All-22 thread, playaction is also about the play design and fooling the opposition.

With a running game like ours, we should be hitting some of the deep balls to open targets but we're not. Why are defenses not being fooled?

If Andre Johnson in his prime can be that wide open so many times, I doubt it's because the defense is ignoring him or because he's just so fast he zoomed by them in the blink of an eye. No, him being miles open like that suggests the play design worked to fool the DBs into thinking they were either running the ball or going somewhere else with it.

So why are we struggling so much to connect on these plays if our running game is so good?

Maybe we do too much playaction?

 

[lostxn]

For reference, Brady's fourth year (2004 Pro Bowl season, SB champ and 14-2 record), he averaged 60.8% completion, 18/30 for 230 yards (7.7 YPA), 1.75 TDs, 0.88 INTs.

For only these 8 games in 2017, Dak is 62.9%, 20/32 for 227 yards (7.1 YPA), 2 TDs Passing, 0.5 INTs. With rushing, he's 251 yards per game and 2.5 TDs-per-game.

It's funny cuz I'm very concerned with Dak's passing ability, but looking at these stats, we're fucking spoiled. Dak doesn't throw many 25+ yard passes, but maybe it's balanced by him not throwing many <5 yards.

He's the Cris Carter of QBs...all he does is throw 1st downs.

One thing I will say about Brady is his WRs were total shit for most of his career (save the near perfect season). Heck the guys he has now save Gronk are not special. Bunch of Beasleys running around.

 

[P_T]

The game is being reaired on NFLN now.

 

[UncleMilti]

You have to attribute some of that to the receivers (Dez, Terence Williams, Beasley, and Witten) not being any sort of vertical threat. The only one who seems to be able to do it is Butler.

Eh, I'm not 100% sure of that. Dez has enough speed to get by a lot of CB's, and so does Williams. Straight flat line speed is Butler, but he seems to have the dropsies when its an easy catch.

But I would have to say watching the various NFL games, there of plenty of QB's throwing and completing long passes to WR's who don't have blazing speed.

 

[ravidubey]

For reference, Brady's fourth year (2004 Pro Bowl season, SB champ and 14-2 record), he averaged 60.8% completion, 18/30 for 230 yards (7.7 YPA), 1.75 TDs, 0.88 INTs.

For only these 8 games in 2017, Dak is 62.9%, 20/32 for 227 yards (7.1 YPA), 2 TDs Passing, 0.5 INTs. With rushing, he's 251 yards per game and 2.5 TDs-per-game.

It's funny cuz I'm very concerned with Dak's passing ability, but looking at these stats, we're fucking spoiled. Dak doesn't throw many 25+ yard passes, but maybe it's balanced by him not throwing many <5 yards.

He's the Cris Carter of QBs...all he does is throw 1st downs.

He's been amazing. We are spoiled, but otoh it's not wrong for a fan to want elite QB play.

 

[lostxn]

He's been amazing. We are spoiled, but otoh it's not wrong for a fan to want elite QB play.

You are getting elite QB play. You're just not recognizing it when you see it. Taking care of the ball is more important than vanity yards. Keeping the chains moving is more important than throwing 50/50 bombs.

Judge Dak the way we just Aikman. With wins.

 

[Genghis Khan]

You are getting elite QB play. You're just not recognizing it when you see it. Taking care of the ball is more important than vanity yards. Keeping the chains moving is more important than throwing 50/50 bombs.

Judge Dak the way we just Aikman. With wins.

I think wins are part of it, and stats are of it (specifically efficiency stats, I don't personally think much of volume stats but I think efficiency stats often tell a lot). Aikman's volume stats weren't often there but his efficiency stats were usually very good. Dak is definitely similar in that regard.

But even then, I think those things don't tell the whole story, and that's where the eye test comes in.

Like if a QB throws a pass for 8 yards, that's a 100% completion percentage, 8 yards per attempt, didn't throw a pick. The stats look pretty good. But what if there was a receiver wide open for 15 yards and a first down? The stats don't tell you that. There could be a reason the QB didn't throw it to the other guy, but it could be just a bad decision, or at least not an optimal decision (depending on the circumstances). And it's these situations where I think Dak can make some strides, where a bigger play might be there and he doesn't take it. I think this is part of the reason he seems to struggle a little against tougher defenses.

All that to say, I agree he's good, but I don't know about elite yet.

 

[Texas Ace]

I think wins are part of it, and stats are of it (specifically efficiency stats, I don't personally think much of volume stats but I think efficiency stats often tell a lot). Aikman's volume stats weren't often there but his efficiency stats were usually very good. Dak is definitely similar in that regard.

But even then, I think those things don't tell the whole story, and that's where the eye test comes in.

Like if a QB throws a pass for 8 yards, that's a 100% completion percentage, 8 yards per attempt, didn't throw a pick. The stats look pretty good. But what if there was a receiver wide open for 15 yards and a first down? The stats don't tell you that. There could be a reason the QB didn't throw it to the other guy, but it could be just a bad decision, or at least not an optimal decision (depending on the circumstances). And it's these situations where I think Dak can make some strides, where a bigger play might be there and he doesn't take it. I think this is part of the reason he seems to struggle a little against tougher defenses.

All that to say, I agree he's good, but I don't know about elite yet.

I think that's a very fair assessment.

The good news is that the guy is only a season and a half into his career, so there's good reason to believe this guy has so much more room to grow and get better.

If he does, watch out.

 

[Smitty]

I think wins are part of it, and stats are of it (specifically efficiency stats, I don't personally think much of volume stats but I think efficiency stats often tell a lot). Aikman's volume stats weren't often there but his efficiency stats were usually very good. Dak is definitely similar in that regard.

But even then, I think those things don't tell the whole story, and that's where the eye test comes in.

Like if a QB throws a pass for 8 yards, that's a 100% completion percentage, 8 yards per attempt, didn't throw a pick. The stats look pretty good. But what if there was a receiver wide open for 15 yards and a first down? The stats don't tell you that. There could be a reason the QB didn't throw it to the other guy, but it could be just a bad decision, or at least not an optimal decision (depending on the circumstances). And it's these situations where I think Dak can make some strides, where a bigger play might be there and he doesn't take it. I think this is part of the reason he seems to struggle a little against tougher defenses.

All that to say, I agree he's good, but I don't know about elite yet.

Agreed, and this is my point about him too, though its obviously hard to say he's not excelling when he's put up 28+ points like 5 weeks in a row.

But yeah, some day (perhaps soon) he's not gonna be able to lean on Elliott. Some day, he's gonna have to throw for 350 and 4 TDs to win. Maybe in a playoff environment.

It's a passing league. The Aikman comparisons aren't 100% accurate, because in Aikman's day a 2 touchdown lead in the fourth quarter, that you may have built through ground control rushing attack, was safe as safe could be. Now, if you are only up 2 touchdowns at the start of the fourth quarter, it's practically a tie game. One punt and you could be tied when you get the ball back. It's almost common.

It's a given that he will eventually have to be capable of big play scoring with the pass. Maybe not every week, but it's gotta be in him to beat defenses this way from time to time. Is it? Dunno.

 

[Simpleton]

Is there a reason, aside from not knowing anything about football, that people ignore the fact that Wentz has the far superior defense?

The advantage of a strong supporting cast doesn't stop with what you have on offense, the Eagles defense makes things much easier on Wentz, especially earlier in the year before he really got into a groove.

He wasn't great over the first four games and the offense wasn't playing as well as they are now but they still went 3-1 in large part due to the defense. They're also tied for 3rd in the league in turnovers forced and their defense seems to give their offense a short field at least once a game over the last month or so.

This narrative that Wentz is some sort of maestro while Dak is just a high-level game manager is ridiculous.

He has a better deep ball and is better at giving his WR's chances downfield when they're 1 on 1, that's about it. They both average the exact same amount of pass attempts per game at 32.3 and Blount is actually averaging more YPC than Elliott this year, so it's not like Wentz is Kirk Cousins with a running game averaging 3 YPC.

Wentz's YPA is slightly better than Prescott's, while his completion % is lower, and to be honest a decent amount of Wentz's big plays have been schemed up on screens/short dump offs that the receiver or RB takes for another 20-30 yards for a TD, just like Prescott.

They're pretty similar QB's overall, Wentz is better on deep balls like I mentioned, Prescott I think has better pocket presence and accuracy in the short/intermediate, and they're obviously both dangerous with their legs and can make plays out of the pocket.

 

[lostxn]

Is there a reason, aside from not knowing anything about football, that people ignore the fact that Wentz has the far superior defense?

The advantage of a strong supporting cast doesn't stop with what you have on offense, the Eagles defense makes things much easier on Wentz, especially earlier in the year before he really got into a groove.

He wasn't great over the first four games and the offense wasn't playing as well as they are now but they still went 3-1 in large part due to the defense. They're also tied for 3rd in the league in turnovers forced and their defense seems to give their offense a short field at least once a game over the last month or so.

This narrative that Wentz is some sort of maestro while Dak is just a high-level game manager is ridiculous.

He has a better deep ball and is better at giving his WR's chances downfield when they're 1 on 1, that's about it. They both average the exact same amount of pass attempts per game at 32.3 and Blount is actually averaging more YPC than Elliott this year, so it's not like Wentz is Kirk Cousins with a running game averaging 3 YPC.

Wentz's YPA is slightly better than Prescott's, while his completion % is lower, and to be honest a decent amount of Wentz's big plays have been schemed up on screens/short dump offs that the receiver or RB takes for another 20-30 yards for a TD, just like Prescott.

They're pretty similar QB's overall, Wentz is better on deep balls like I mentioned, Prescott I think has better pocket presence and accuracy in the short/intermediate, and they're obviously both dangerous with their legs and can make plays out of the pocket.

The other thing to note is we got Zeke (4th) and Dak (#4 pick) for less than what it took to get Wentz (#8 pick, 3rd rounder, 4th rounder, 2017 1st, 2018 2nd). It's amazing they have done so well fielding such a competitive team while giving up so much. Naturally the Browns have done little with that haul.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Is there a reason, aside from not knowing anything about football, that people ignore the fact that Wentz has the far superior defense?

Don't get me wrong, I agree with your premise on Wentz vs Dak. But Dak has far superior personnel on offense. Dallas is better at every position except TE.

 

[Simpleton]

Don't get me wrong, I agree with your premise on Wentz vs Dak. But Dak has far superior personnel on offense. Dallas is better at every position except TE.

While that's true I don't think the gap is as significant as most would lead you to believe.

Elliott/Dez are clearly better than Blount/Jeffrey but are Williams/Beasley that much better than Agholor/Smith?

Ertz is at least as good a receiver as Witten nowadays although he's an average at best blocker.

Their OL was playing as well as any in the league until Peters got hurt.

If you listened to most they'd have you believe that Wentz is carrying a Browns-level offensive cast to 8-1 while Prescott throws 15 times a game.

 

[ravidubey]

Denver game.

Dak showed what many believe to be his true colors. Run game sucked, corners played tight (which we can never seem to do), and Dak played-safe the whole first half away.