Draft Chatter Thread...

[Genghis Khan]

I agree. And, a solid safety/corner is not worth the #4 overall pick.

Jiggy does not appear to understand this concept.

 

[VA Cowboy]

Jiggy does not appear to understand this concept.

He seems like the type who will high five any pick we make.

 

[Smitty]

All indications are that we will either draft Bosa, QB or trade down. At least that's my opinion from the list of guys we have visited with or are bringing in for a visit.

Hope you are right but there are no QBs on that visit list.

 

[Cowboysrock55]

Hope you are right but there are no QBs on that visit list.

There is also no Ramsey, Buckner, Elliott or Jack. The two highest prospects are Bosa and Rankins and I'm assuming the plan wouldn't be to take Rankins that high.

On the other hand when we travel to a place to hold a private workout with just a QB I'd put a lot of weight in that.

 

[L.T. Fan]

There is also no Ramsey, Buckner, Elliott or Jack. The two highest prospects are Bosa and Rankins and I'm assuming the plan wouldn't be to take Rankins that high.

On the other hand when we travel to a place to hold a private workout with just a QB I'd put a lot of weight in that.

If you are going to take a QB then maybe there is a switcheroo plan in place to not show your hand by having any further contact with them. If someone is tracking like you guys have been then a non contact approach would cloud the situation. Wink wink.

 

[Jiggyfly]

Because of the risk that the projection doesn't pay off, as it very often hasn't paid off. Position switches and position hybrids can go nowhere fast.

Except for the fact that he would not be switching positions.

Like I said it seems you don't know much about the player.

 

[Jiggyfly]

Because a S/CB has more opportunities for INT's than a LB.

And Woodson was a bit player his first year in the league and his stats are dragged down by the fact that he only had 2 total INT's over his last 2 seasons as he was nearing the end. If you could guarantee me that Ramsey would have 20+ INT's while starting for us for a decade I'd be fine with taking him if we didn't have such a dire need at QB and the opportunity to draft a guy like Goff or Wentz.

If both QB's were gone, we couldn't trade down and you could guarantee me that type of production out of Ramsey as a safety next to Jones I'd be fine with it since that would likely mean that we'd have one of the best safety duos in the league.

I get what you're saying about impacting a defense without racking up 8 INT's a year but I also think you're underselling Woodson's ability to get INT's while he was in his prime.

No I think you overestimate his ability.

His 1st 5 years as a starter he had 2 5 int seasons and 1 season of 2 int's and 2 seasons with 1 in.

He never had over 3 int's after that and only one season of 3 int's.

7 out of 10 seasons as a starter he 2 int's or less, mostly less.

Judging Ramsey only on his low int numbers from college is foolish when projecting how he could impact an NFL defense, especially rating him against players in this draft.

 

[Simpleton]

No I think you overestimate his ability.

His 1st 5 years as a starter he had 2 5 int seasons and 1 season of 2 int's and 2 seasons with 1 in.

He never had over 3 int's after that and only one season of 3 int's.

7 out of 10 seasons as a starter he 2 int's or less, mostly less.

Judging Ramsey only on his low int numbers from college is foolish when projecting how he could impact an NFL defense, especially rating him against players in this draft.

You're comparing the ability to get INT's in college to getting INT's in the NFL, which is obviously much more difficult. Why don't you give me a list of elite NFL DB's over the last 20 years who went in the 1st round and had less than 4 career INT's in college?

Your argument of ignoring INT's when projecting the ability to be an elite DB worthy of a top 5 pick is ridiculous. Even Woodson had more INT's in college playing LB for Christ's sake.

 

[Cowboysrock55]

Your argument of ignoring INT's when projecting the ability to be an elite DB worthy of a top 5 pick is ridiculous. Even Woodson had more INT's in college playing LB for Christ's sake.

Leodis McKelvin is the last highly rated corner I remember seeing his INT numbers in college and wondering what the hell people saw in him. And even he had 2 picks his last year in college (For a total of 3, so you can kind of see the comparison).

 

[Jiggyfly]

That is in concept and not looking at the fit.

Marinelli's system is quite rigid and I don't see him being able to flex enough to use players like Ramsey or Jack. That is the unfortunate part of it all.

Fair point, but he did seem to move Jones around a bit so that is a start.

 

[Jiggyfly]

Hey, this guy right now is better than Woodson was at his best. He'll be a 10 time all pro if he doesn't break his leg and he'll do it without forcing a single turnover. /Jiggy

I never said anything close to that.

 

[Jiggyfly]

You're comparing the ability to get INT's in college to getting INT's in the NFL, which is obviously much more difficult. Why don't you give me a list of elite NFL DB's over the last 20 years who went in the 1st round and had less than 4 career INT's in college?

Your argument of ignoring INT's when projecting the ability to be an elite DB worthy of a top 5 pick is ridiculous. Even Woodson had more INT's in college playing LB for Christ's sake.

And you are using one stat to make an assumption about a players ability to impact a defense.

Woodson played at a hear Hall of fame level while not being a great INT guy.

I see Ramsey with a lot of the same abilities and attributes, this argument of going back and checking other 1st round DB's numbers is extremely weak.

How many have had great int numbers and busted.

He has shown attributes that translate well to the next level and IMO I think the Woodson comparisons are fair.

I think he could have very similar int career numbers and still be very impactfull.

Like you said the Wentz hype was getting out of hand so has the Ramsey scorn.

 

[Simpleton]

And you are using one stat to make an assumption about a players ability to impact a defense.

Woodson played at a hear Hall of fame level while not being a great INT guy.

I see Ramsey with a lot of the same abilities and attributes, this argument of going back and checking other 1st round DB's numbers is extremely weak.

How many have had great int numbers and busted.

He has shown attributes that translate well to the next level and IMO I think the Woodson comparisons are fair.

I think he could have very similar int career numbers and still be very impactfull.

Like you said the Wentz hype was getting out of hand so has the Ramsey scorn.

It's pretty important when I can't recall a single "elite" prospect in the last 20 years who barely got any INT's in college and who then ended up being elite in the NFL.

I think Ramsey will be a fine player, and he certainly has upside to be a superstar, it's just a gamble in my opinion based on the INT numbers and the lack of ball skills I saw in some of the tapes I've watched. It's a gamble I'd rather take on a QB, which is an infinitely more important position.

 

[Jiggyfly]

It's pretty important when I can't recall a single "elite" prospect in the last 20 years who barely got any INT's in college and who then ended up being elite in the NFL.

I think Ramsey will be a fine player, and he certainly has upside to be a superstar, it's just a gamble in my opinion based on the INT numbers and the lack of ball skills I saw in some of the tapes I've watched. It's a gamble I'd rather take on a QB, which is an infinitely more important position.

I am right there with you, I was pushing back on the people acting like he was a bum.

The guy I want at 4 is Goff but I can see the allure of Ramsey if you are not sold on the QB's.

If I was a betting man I would put more money on Ramsey being closer to Woodson than Wentz and Goff being closer to top 5 QB's.

 

[Simpleton]

I am right there with you, I was pushing back on the people acting like he was a bum.

The guy I want at 4 is Goff but I can see the allure of Ramsey if you are not sold on the QB's.

If I was a betting man I would put more money on Ramsey being closer to Woodson than Wentz and Goff being closer to top 5 QB's.

Yea, I mean at the end of the day I can't shake the INT's thing. I think he will be a fine player but there is not one elite NFL DB (I consider guys who are several time All Pros, borderline HOF or better and/or All Decade Team types to be elite) over the last 20 years who has produced such poor INT numbers. Basically every single future elite NFL DB put up at least 5 or so INT's in college, most of them were up around 8+, and not all of them stayed all 4 years in college either.

I think he could certainly reach that level but considering that fact, that we just drafted a guy that is very similar to him in Jones, and that I place much more priority on improving the DL or securing our future QB, I'd much rather go that direction.

I mean, we have these stupid benchmarks for size, speed, "SPARQ" or whatever, why would this not be a benchmark?

I realize it's probably looked down upon because stats can very easily lie, but in a clear cut situation like this I don't understand how you could draft a guy at 4 when he would literally be the first DB in 2+ decades to end up having an All Pro/HOF type of career while having such meager college production in terms of INT's.

 

[Jiggyfly]

Yea, I mean at the end of the day I can't shake the INT's thing. I think he will be a fine player but there is not one elite NFL DB (I consider guys who are several time All Pros, borderline HOF or better and/or All Decade Team types to be elite) over the last 20 years who has produced such poor INT numbers. Basically every single future elite NFL DB put up at least 5 or so INT's in college, most of them were up around 8+, and not all of them stayed all 4 years in college either.

I think he could certainly reach that level but considering that fact, that we just drafted a guy that is very similar to him in Jones, and that I place much more priority on improving the DL or securing our future QB, I'd much rather go that direction.

I mean, we have these stupid benchmarks for size, speed, "SPARQ" or whatever, why would this not be a benchmark?

I realize it's probably looked down upon because stats can very easily lie, but in a clear cut situation like this I don't understand how you could draft a guy at 4 when he would literally be the first DB in 2+ decades to end up having an All Pro/HOF type of career while having such meager college production in terms of INT's.

He had 3 less int's than Polamalu and 2 less than Woodson had in college I think him not getting any his senior year is an anamoly and he has bad hands.

I don't see how you can overlook his tape and his ability to cover and blitz and outweigh that with his int numbers.

How did Woodson's college numbers impact what he did as a pro?

Woodson is a prime example of the value of impacting a defense without a lot of int's, he had plenty of years with 1 int.

 

[Simpleton]

He had 3 less int's than Polamalu and 2 less than Woodson had in college I think him not getting any his senior year is an anamoly and he has bad hands.

I don't see how you can overlook his tape and his ability to cover and blitz and outweigh that with his int numbers.

How did Woodson's college numbers impact what he did as a pro?

Woodson is a prime example of the value of impacting a defense without a lot of int's, he had plenty of years with 1 int.

Again, you're comparing Woodson not getting INT's in the NFL to Ramsey not getting INT's in college, big difference there, especially when Woodson had more INT's playing LB for Christ's sake.

But yea, I realize the seeming arbitrary nature of comparing 3 INT's to 5, and his athleticism/versatility is very obvious on tape, but so are his ball skills where INT's clang off his hands every 2nd or 3rd game. To me, I'd rather take that gamble on a QB than a DB with questionable ball skills.

 

[Rev]

I think it's past 5 posts deep.

 

[Jiggyfly]

Again, you're comparing Woodson not getting INT's in the NFL to Ramsey not getting INT's in college, big difference there, especially when Woodson had more INT's playing LB for Christ's sake.

But yea, I realize the seeming arbitrary nature of comparing 3 INT's to 5, and his athleticism/versatility is very obvious on tape, but so are his ball skills where INT's clang off his hands every 2nd or 3rd game. To me, I'd rather take that gamble on a QB than a DB with questionable ball skills.

I don't understand where you are going with this.

If Woodson did not get int's in the pros it should not matter how many he had in college, we are talking about what Ramsey does well that translates to the next level and the things he does well are the same thing that Woodson did well.

Cover, tackle and be physical.

Now I know Woodson was also very cerebral but Ramsey does not come off as dummy.

 

[Simpleton]

I don't understand where you are going with this.

If Woodson did not get int's in the pros it should not matter how many he had in college, we are talking about what Ramsey does well that translates to the next level and the things he does well are the same thing that Woodson did well.

Cover, tackle and be physical.

Now I know Woodson was also very cerebral but Ramsey does not come off as dummy.

Theoretically it's easier to rack up INT's in college against inferior WR's, QB's and more simplistic passing games, that's why Ramsey's ridiculous 3 INT's over 3 years is so concerning, if he can't do better than that in college with balls constantly clanging off his hands then what is he going to do in the NFL?

At the end of the day there is nowhere near enough there for me to take him over a QB.