Hill: Cowboys value their draft as ‘probably most successful in a while’

Since when is Baylor considered small school? I think Ravi is confused on who Williams is.
 
BipolarFan said:
If TWill is so good, why was he available in the third?
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It's funny because Spagnola pulled out the "if he's so good why did 22 other teams pass on him?" when Broaddus was criticizing the Cowboys for not staying put and taking Floyd at #18 when they had him inside the top 10 on their board. Didn't say a damn word about "if Terence Williams is so good why was he available at #74?" though. Just praised Dallas for getting a steal on a guy they had rated much higher than where they drafted him. Typical company man.
 
Deuce said:
Since when is Baylor considered small school? I think Ravi is confused on who Williams is.
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You're right, I should edit, I had the DB's on my mind and roped Williams in that grouping because he also has inflated numbers. In Williams' case they come from having been in a spread offense not from being at a small (i.e. non div 1) school.
 
ravidubey said:
Knocks
- Floyd was a top ten pick at a position of need, great both now and in the future. Jones had the gall to say he wasn't "quick twitch" enough and didn't fit in the Cowboys' 4-3 system. Are you kidding me? Why then he was he in the top ten on their board?
- Dallas got jobbed in the trade down with SF.
- Frederick could have been had in the second round.
- Escobar is a niche player, not a starter on this team. He also could have gone later
- Williams is a fine pick, but what about Keenan Allen, Stedman Bailey, or Markus Wheaton? A spread offense can alter numbers, and that seems to have swayed Jerry because he was considering Williams as early as the 1st round.
- Wilcox has played safety just one year.
- Wilcox and Webb as small school players were each taken earlier and in combination increase the risk of an outright bust. The odds of two small school DB's making it are low, so one of your picks in the 3rd and 4th rounds is going to bust.
- Randle is seriously injured.
- No defensive lineman taken in a year when shifting to a DL-intensive scheme
- No serious upgrade in team speed. Escobar, Williams, and Randle are slow

Value
-Frederick + Williams > Floyd. Frederick is a day-one starter and adding a 3rd round pick is very nice.
-Escobar has great hands and should upgrade the redzone offense
-Williams was incredibly productive and despite a lot of that production being attributed to the spread offense, has moves the other WR's on this team lack.
-Holloman is a great value in the 6th

Notes
- I like Webb alot and think he has ballhawk instincts as good as any CB in the league. He's small, but he has heart.
- I am actually excited that Wilcox played so well at safety despite having limited experience. That tells me he's an instinctive football player first, and Dallas needs as many of those as they can get.

Overall
Not one pick is terrible and all should contribute. From this perspective the entire draft class may be considered helpful and is a huge step up from what we're used to from Jerry (think 2009). From the perspective of the draft in isolation Dallas did not get enough value, though frankly that's hard to do for any team without extra picks or high picks.
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Ravi: Some of your post is conjecture and opinion just as my position is . Obviously we will have to wait and see in a year or two as to how it all sifts out but that is true of every organization in the league.

I think everyone agrees that the first pick was a reach but none of us can say for certain that he could have been had much later only that he possibly could have. The organization traded down and I think it was the best offer they could make. The whole argument evolves with the BPA approach vs need. Apparently Dallas opted for need
. Whether they should have is argumentative.

The rest of the picks appear to be pretty reasonable in my view but as previously stated we all will have to see how it sifts out. That'' s my opinion.
 
L.T. Fan said:
Ravi: Some of your post is conjecture and opinion just as my position is . Obviously we will have to wait and see in a year or two as to how it all sifts out but that is true of every organization in the league.

I think everyone agrees that the first pick was a reach but none of us can say for certain that he could have been had much later only that he possibly could have. The organization traded down and I think it was the best offer they could make. The whole argument evolves with the BPA approach vs need. Apparently Dallas opted for need
. Whether they should have is argumentative.

The rest of the picks appear to be pretty reasonable in my view but as previously stated we all will have to see how it sifts out. That'' s my opinion.
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LT, agreed it's completely my opinion based on what I've heard and read. I'm not pessimistic, just attempting to list objective reasons why I think the draft has knocks against it and what values the Cowboys did find. IMO this looks like a draft that will produce 2 eventual starters, several productive pros for years to come, and no pro-bowlers. Nothing wrong with that at all. The make or break players are the DB's, especially Wilcox.
 
Texas Ace said:
GSM.

I wish someone in the DFW media had the balls to read that exact quote to him about that horrid draft.
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That's what blows my mind. They could really hold his ass over the flames but they all act like they work for him.
 
I find myself really hoping that Floyd turns out to be a bad ass for the Vikings.
 
It would take the dice rolling in our favor on like every player for this draft to be our "most successful in a while."

The fact that we continue to prioritize the skill position players over the linemen is disheartening and deserves a grade reduction.

Don't tell me that it was BPA. It's not that "Oh no, it just so happens that a DB was our best player on the board again in the 3rd and 4th rounds." The truth is that we don't rank OLs high. We don't value them. And the only reason we went OL in the first round this year was so Jerry Jones could claim he honored his word to Tony Romo.

Probably held his nose while doing it. I bet he wanted Reid at 18 more than anything.
 
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mschmidt64 said:
The fact that we continue to prioritize the skill position players over the linemen is disheartening and deserves a grade reduction.
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The Escobar pick bothers me. I suppose if they valued him that high and see him as a Witten replacement in a couple years it's defensible. Seems more like stubborn Jerry to me though. Same OC, same QB, same system and they've really never had great success with a two TE set. This is with significant draft resources at the 2nd TE position. Still didn't take off. Yet Jerry wants to try it a third time. It's like he is pounding on the table and saying "I want to be like New England, damn it, so make it work!". He's trying to force it and hope he finally gets it right.
 
E_D_Guapo said:
The Escobar pick bothers me. I suppose if they valued him that high and see him as a Witten replacement in a couple years it's defensible. Seems more like stubborn Jerry to me though. Same OC, same QB, same system and they've really never had great success with a two TE set. This is with significant draft resources at the 2nd TE position. Still didn't take off. Yet Jerry wants to try it a third time. It's like he is pounding on the table and saying "I want to be like New England, damn it, so make it work!". He's trying to force it and hope he finally gets it right.
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Took NE like 10 years and 3 drafts to get the two TE to sort of work. And they are about the only team that really has.

In theory, the two TE set seems like a great thing. Tons of great arguments for it. In practice, it really isn't ever as successful as people think it will be and teams end up throwing resources after it time and time again trying to make it work.
 
We'll get a better TE next year since we'll be drafting Top 10.
 
junk said:
Took NE like 10 years and 3 drafts to get the two TE to sort of work. And they are about the only team that really has.

In theory, the two TE set seems like a great thing. Tons of great arguments for it. In practice, it really isn't ever as successful as people think it will be and teams end up throwing resources after it time and time again trying to make it work.
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It is a lot like the 3-4. In theory it sounds great. But ultimately you have to have the right talent and coaching had better be top notch.
 
E_D_Guapo said:
The Escobar pick bothers me. I suppose if they valued him that high and see him as a Witten replacement in a couple years it's defensible. Seems more like stubborn Jerry to me though. Same OC, same QB, same system and they've really never had great success with a two TE set. This is with significant draft resources at the 2nd TE position. Still didn't take off. Yet Jerry wants to try it a third time. It's like he is pounding on the table and saying "I want to be like New England, damn it, so make it work!". He's trying to force it and hope he finally gets it right.
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I actually do kinda believe that the 2 TE thing is a Garrett preference; though I can't be 100% certain because it started before Garrett got here with Fasano.

But I think if Garrett did not want to run a 2 TE set, I don't think Jerry would be forcing it on him. He does a lot of things wrong, but in this case, that is not one of them.

In any case, though, this is why we need a real GM.

It's the coach's job to think in terms of subpackages and situational personnel. Parcells would harp on having the right 46 guys dressed on gameday and he would make some head-scratching decisions on who not to dress. He would justify it based on a guy not being able to contribute in a certain package or on special teams or something.

That is the Xs and O's nature of a coach. Hell, Garrett should be faulted if he's NOT thinking that way.

It's the GM's job to override the coach on this. The GM's job needs to be long-term teambuilding, and that is the view he needs to have. The GM needs to balance getting the coach the pieces he needs going into the season, but also to have an eye on the future by collecting the best talent.

This is why I can't buy the "Garrett doesn't value OLs" argument. It's related to the "Garrett overvalues a 2nd TE" argument.

I'm sure both statements are true. But I WANT my head coach thinking like that in a lot of cases. Whereas the GM needs to be able to say "You know what, I think the Cowboys need a ten year starter at LB or FS or OG more than they need a utility player who will make one specific subpackage work better for Jason Garrett."

It takes a very special coach to be able to strategize in terms of personnel for both now and the future. For as good as Parcells is as a coach, even his record as the GM/HC combo is somewhat mixed -- although still vastly superior to our GM.

The GM is the one who is failing us here.
 
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Since we're not getting a GM or a Coach/GM, I just hope our next coach cares about the lines. Garrett is a typical Ex-QB who only cares about "weapons" in the passing game.
 
mschmidt64 said:
This is why I can't buy the "Garrett doesn't value OLs" argument. It's related to the "Garrett overvalues a 2nd TE" argument.
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:lol

During the time Red Pube has been in Dallas, we've got rid of a perfectly fine second TE in Fasano for next to nothing, drafted Bennett in the second round, Phillips (probably because of his Gawddamn brother) and now Escobar, also in the second round. In the same time period, we have drafted two tackles in premium rounds (Smith, Marten), wasted another on a guy that can't play in Brewster. Free in the fourth and Sam Young in the sixth...for two full starting positions.

It isn't just a Jerry failing. It is Jerry failing because he's listening to Jason Garrett.
 
boozeman said:
It is a lot like the 3-4. In theory it sounds great. But ultimately you have to have the right talent and coaching had better be top notch.
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It does come down to coaching and play-calling. You can't rely on the QB to make the 2-TE offense work because he's always going to go for the open guy on any given play. But if the plays are called to feature one TE and then another it has the effect of keeping the defense off balance.

The Packers did that to Dallas in the 1995 NFC Championship game with Keith Jackson and Mark Chmura and it was all Holmgren's design and play-calling that made it work.

Eventually the Dallas offense overwhelmed the Packers, but they had our defense on its heels for a while using that technique. Had Favre just been out there slinging it you know sooner or later he'd force one downfield that he shouldn't.
 
Clay_Allison said:
Since we're not getting a GM or a Coach/GM, I just hope our next coach cares about the lines. Garrett is a typical Ex-QB who only cares about "weapons" in the passing game.
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It won't matter unless our next coach is a coach/GM.

This team will not get over the hump without someone more capable than Jerry picking talent.
 
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