The Minimum Wage Debate

[E_D_Guapo]

Pride in what one has accomplished doesn't always equal sanctimonious.

Well, it certainly comes off that way when it seems to be used as little more than a platform to belittle and generalize people who work for minimum/low wages as a bunch of lazy fucks who don't work hard. Not everyone has the aptitude and/or skills to do a whole lot better for themselves, yet millions bust their asses washing dishes, scrubbing floors, flipping burgers, taking care of the elderly, etc.

Be proud of what you have accomplished. Just keep in mind when crowing about it that not everyone is as fortunate or even has the same opportunity. It is "that damn difficult" for a lot of people. There are only so many jobs out there and not everyone has the ability to pull themselves out of the hole of working hard for little pay.

 

[E_D_Guapo]

Why's that? I don't really see it that way. I don't think I'm better than anyone, by far. In fact, 99% of people can do my job. I don't think many people want to take on the responsibility though.

I assume you are on the other end of the spectrum from me, that's why I started this thread, enlighten me. Seriously.

I'm not really on the other end of the spectrum from you but saying that people making minimum/low wage don't want to do anything else is generalizing big time. There are a lot of hard working people who simply can not do much better.

 

[Cotton]

Well, it certainly comes off that way when it seems to be used as little more than a platform to belittle and generalize people who work for minimum/low wages as a bunch of lazy fucks who don't work hard. Not everyone has the aptitude and/or skills to do a whole lot better for themselves, yet millions bust their asses washing dishes, scrubbing floors, flipping burgers, taking care of the elderly, etc.

Be proud of what you have accomplished. Just keep in mind when crowing about it that not everyone is as fortunate or even has the same opportunity. It is "that damn difficult" for a lot of people. There are only so many jobs out there and not everyone has the ability to pull themselves out of the hole of working hard for little pay.

The point is, if they are happy making those wages, more power to them. But, if they want to make more then they can either work harder or learn a skill which will allow the jump in pay. Expecting the government to force your employer to pay you more isn't the answer, which is kinda the point of the thread. What Newt and I illustrated is that it's possible. And, let me tell you, opportunities don't always just jump up and slap us in the face. Sometimes you have to be actively looking for that opportunity and taking full advantage of it when you find it.

 

[Newt]

I'm not really on the other end of the spectrum from you but saying that people making minimum/low wage don't want to do anything else is generalizing big time. There are a lot of people who simply can not do much better.

I know its generalizing, but I don't think its that big of a reach. There are those that simply cannot work, they are disabled, handicapped, or even elderly. Then there are a lot of people with excuses. And there are a lot of people looking for handouts.

To me, if you want to work at walmart for the rest of your life, more power to you. Low stress, low expectations, low pay. But why should they get paid more? The job isn't that demanding, mentally or physically. The job has minimal requirements, mentally or physically. Yet people are screaming for more than a minimal wage.

As for the elderly, handicapped and disabled, they are normally already getting some type of government assistance. Whether it be medicare, disability, social security. So if you add that on top of their wages it comes out a little better.

My question is, what happens when the minimum wage is increased? All the walmart workers rejoice, until the next day when they discover they make to much to qualify for food stamps. Then walmart has to raise prices because they are making as much profit as they were a week ago, milk goes from $3.99 a gallon to $4.99 a gallon. Well that screws me because I love milk and I didn't get a raise, my cost of living just went up, I think I deserve a raise. So I get a bump in pay, so do the other 80 people at my shop, shop rates go up. We do work for mines and power plants, guess they will have to raise their rates to account for the repair work costing more.

This could go on forever, raising minimum wage doesn't really fix anything.

 

[E_D_Guapo]

The point is, if they are happy making those wages, more power to them. But, if they want to make more then they can either work harder or learn a skill which will allow the jump in pay.

I doubt many people are happy making those wages. A lot of them are working very hard. Doesn't mean that they're going to ever get to the point where they have a comfortable salary. Maybe a $0.15–$0.25 an hour raise every year or so. There aren't an infinite number of jobs that pay well. Not everyone is going to be able to attain one no matter how hard they work.

Expecting the government to force your employer to pay you more isn't the answer, which is kinda the point of the thread.

I guess that is the point of the thread. Either that or an opportunity to Furley sniff about one's achievements, and how literally anyone can secure a job that pays well (which is false).

What Newt and I illustrated is that it's possible.

Of course it's possible. It happens all the time. But to say that it is realistic for everyone is ridiculous.

And, let me tell you, opportunities don't always just jump up and slap us in the face. Sometimes you have to be actively looking for that opportunity and taking full advantage of it when you find it.

Thanks for enlightening me. I thought opportunity came door to door asking people if they wanted in on a better life.

Lookit, I'm not trying to cause hard feelings here. You and Newt are good guys and you should be proud of what you have accomplished. But my first reaction when reading this thread was that it seemed more like a gloat session than anything else, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

 

[E_D_Guapo]

I know its generalizing, but I don't think its that big of a reach. There are those that simply cannot work, they are disabled, handicapped, or even elderly. Then there are a lot of people with excuses. And there are a lot of people looking for handouts.

To me, if you want to work at walmart for the rest of your life, more power to you. Low stress, low expectations, low pay. But why should they get paid more? The job isn't that demanding, mentally or physically. The job has minimal requirements, mentally or physically. Yet people are screaming for more than a minimal wage.

As for the elderly, handicapped and disabled, they are normally already getting some type of government assistance. Whether it be medicare, disability, social security. So if you add that on top of their wages it comes out a little better.

My question is, what happens when the minimum wage is increased? All the walmart workers rejoice, until the next day when they discover they make to much to qualify for food stamps. Then walmart has to raise prices because they are making as much profit as they were a week ago, milk goes from $3.99 a gallon to $4.99 a gallon. Well that screws me because I love milk and I didn't get a raise, my cost of living just went up, I think I deserve a raise. So I get a bump in pay, so do the other 80 people at my shop, shop rates go up. We do work for mines and power plants, guess they will have to raise their rates to account for the repair work costing more.

This could go on forever, raising minimum wage doesn't really fix anything.

I more or less agree with a lot of your views about minimum wage. I just did not care much for the generalizations and the tone set from the beginning of the thread.

 

[Newt]

Lookit, I'm not trying to cause hard feelings here. You and Newt are good guys and you should be proud of what you have accomplished. But my first reaction when reading this thread was that it seemed more like a gloat session than anything else, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

I don't have any hard feelings, ED. One thing that pisses me off is for others to expect me to give up what I've earned and give it to someone who I don't believe hasn't earned it. I have a brother in law and sister in law that live with this mentality and it bothers me to no ends. Its a touchy subject around anytime I go to my inlaws because guess what, they both still live there, and in my sister in laws case, with her two fatherless children.

My brother in law has been given every opportunity to succeed. I even got him a job with fluor daniels, he lasted a week. As far as I can tell his only disability is being a piece of shit.

My sister in law won't even get a job, she has migranes..... And a mother that won't do anything about it.

I wasn't trying to gloat, sorry it came off that way.

 

[E_D_Guapo]

I don't have any hard feelings, ED. One thing that pisses me off is for others to expect me to give up what I've earned and give it to someone who I don't believe hasn't earned it. I have a brother in law and sister in law that live with this mentality and it bothers me to no ends. Its a touchy subject around anytime I go to my inlaws because guess what, they both still live there, and in my sister in laws case, with her two fatherless children.

My brother in law has been given every opportunity to succeed. I even got him a job with fluor daniels, he lasted a week. As far as I can tell his only disability is being a piece of shit.

My sister in law won't even get a job, she has migranes..... And a mother that won't do anything about it.

I wasn't trying to gloat, sorry it came off that way.

I hear you man, and no need to apologize. You're right on a lot of levels and obviously what you see around you is going to greatly affect how you feel about something. I just want to make sure we do not lose sight of the fact that, though there are millions of lazy pieces of shit, there are also millions of people who are working hard for low wages without much real opportunity to do a whole lot better.

But anyway, I don't want to sidetrack any more from the discussion about minimum wage. It is a good discussion to have. This is the Raw Forum though and I felt like I needed to say what I said to keep some perspective.

 

[Newt]

We hurt ourselves by becoming consumers and no longer producers. We now suck at making things. It is really sad.

This is true on so many levels. We have become dependent on selling goods made in other countries. We take their goods, mark them up and try to make a profit. Problem with that is that I can shop on Amazon too.

If we could get back to making our own quality products our economy would be much better off.

 

[Cotton]

I guess that is the point of the thread. Either that or an opportunity to Furley sniff about one's achievements, and how literally anyone can secure a job that pays well (which is false).

I didn't secure a job that paid well. I secured an entry level job and worked my way up into the position I am in now. Listen, I can't speak for Newt, but I can see how one would see that what Newt and I posted as gloating, but that's not how I meant it, and I highly doubt that's how Newt meant it. It was meant to serve as an illustration that if you don't want to work for minimum wages there are opportunities out there, but you may have to bust your ass to make the most of those opportunities afforded you.

And, yeah, definitely no hard feelings here.

 

[Cotton]

This is true on so many levels. We have become dependent on selling goods made in other countries. We take their goods, mark them up and try to make a profit. Problem with that is that I can shop on Amazon too.

If we could get back to making our own quality products our economy would be much better off.

I think this fact is what will eventually be the downfall of our economy. We have become way too dependent on imports.

 

[Newt]

I just read an article bashing McDonald's for a commercial that aired sunday, the writer said that McDonald's could become a "responsible company" by paying their workers $15/hr. Not sure why this commercial triggered that response but I can't imagine a McDonald's worker making $15/hr. At least not a cashier or a cook. I have never worked at a McDonald's but if they ever start paying $15 an hour I may consider a second job.

 

[Cowboysrock55]

I just read an article bashing McDonald's for a commercial that aired sunday, the writer said that McDonald's could become a "responsible company" by paying their workers $15/hr. Not sure why this commercial triggered that response but I can't imagine a McDonald's worker making $15/hr. At least not a cashier or a cook. I have never worked at a McDonald's but if they ever start paying $15 an hour I may consider a second job.

In a free market economy employees are paid what they are worth to the company. An unskilled worker who is doing something that basically anyone could do does not deserve to be making $15.00 an hour. I think it's an insult to many people in this country who have actually learned a skill and became proficient at it who make that much or less.

I pay my paralegal $15.00 an hour. Why would she have put in the effort to learn skills to become a paralegal if she could just make the same amount of money instantly flipping burgers? Working at McDonald's shouldn't be looked at as a career path by anyone and I don't think it's appropriate to look at the wage of a McDonalds worker as something that should be able to support a family. (Well unless you're working your way up their management structure, then I could understand viewing it as a career path)

 

[Newt]

In a free market economy employees are paid what they are worth to the company. An unskilled worker who is doing something that basically anyone could do does not deserve to be making $15.00 an hour. I think it's an insult to many people in this country who have actually learned a skill and became proficient at it who make that much or less.

I pay my paralegal $15.00 an hour. Why would she have put in the effort to learn skills to become a paralegal if she could just make the same amount of money instantly flipping burgers? Working at McDonald's shouldn't be looked at as a career path by anyone and I don't think it's appropriate to look at the wage of a McDonalds worker as something that should be able to support a family. (Well unless you're working your way up their management structure, then I could understand viewing it as a career path)

That is exactly the point to be made here.

 

[NoDak]

Funny thing about the word sanctimonious...

When somebody uses it to label others, they come across as being sanctimonious.

 

[L.T. Fan]

Funny thing about the word sanctimonious...

When somebody uses it to label others, they come across as being sanctimonious.

I would probably use it more if i could learn to spell it.

 

[E_D_Guapo]

Funny thing about the word sanctimonious...

When somebody uses it to label others, they come across as being sanctimonious.

#nodaklogic

 

[L.T. Fan]

That is exactly the point to be made here.

That's the point I made early on in this thread. Earnings are calculated in relation ship to the production value of the employee in the private sector but conversely in government jobs there is no production and employees are paid in accordance to their credentials.

 

[NoDak]

#nodaklogic

Yep.

#nosenseofhumor

 

[fortsbest]

In most of the places I've seen with minimum wage workers, if you work hard and make the effort to do good work, you won't be at minimum wage for long. The problem is the many who are just there for a paycheck that have no pride in how they look or work and are satisfied at that wage, or don't have the pride or desire to do any better. That gents is the problem.