Machota: NFL 100 - No. 78, Why Roger Staubach was the ‘greatest sports hero of his time’

Genghis Khan

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My top two were always LT and Montana. Hard to compare QBs to everyone else, but that's what I always thought (pre Brady) . LT is the best defensive player I've ever seen.

I don't know about Montana.

I'll give him his proppers and say he was a great QB.

But GOAT?

I don't want to dock a guy for the system he played in, but that WCO really makes QBs look good. And SF was one of the only ones running it at the time.

Personally, I'd have Montana pretty high but I'd have (at least) Marino, Elway, and yes Brady ahead of him.
 

Cowboysrock55

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I don't know about Montana.

I'll give him his proppers and say he was a great QB.

But GOAT?

I don't want to dock a guy for the system he played in, but that WCO really makes QBs look good. And SF was one of the only ones running it at the time.

Personally, I'd have Montana pretty high but I'd have (at least) Marino, Elway, and yes Brady ahead of him.
It was a revolutionary offense at the time. Always makes it hard to judge.
 

Chocolate Lab

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I don't know about Montana.

I'll give him his proppers and say he was a great QB.

But GOAT?

I don't want to dock a guy for the system he played in, but that WCO really makes QBs look good. And SF was one of the only ones running it at the time.
He was just so great under pressure.. I mean, I hated him too, that goes without saying, but he really was great.

As far as just a pure passer, Marino was always my favorite. Unreal accuracy and that quick release.
 

Genghis Khan

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Ranked at 77.... Ted Hendricks.
This is the issue. I don't know where I'd put Staubach in a top 100, so in a vacuum it's hard for me to complain about his ranking per se.

But the issue is when guys like Ted Hendricks are ranked above him.

Yes, Hendricks was a very good player.

And yes it's hard to compare one position to another.

But come on.

Staubach should in no way be ranked behind Ted Hendricks.
 

bbgun

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Staubach had panache, but I don't think you could say he was this like razor sharp guy as a passer.
He wasn't the precision passer that Troy was. He had a terrible day throwing the ball in a 1976 playoff loss to the Rams, and that pass to Jackie Smith was hardly between the numbers. Still, he was Captain Comeback -- a hero to a generation.
 

Genghis Khan

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I'm a fan of adjusted stats because it really gives context relative to a player's contemporaries.

Here's Staubach's adjusted stats. This is pretty much what an all time great should look like, well above league average (100) just about everywhere, year after year.

Even his completion percentage, which seems low, was high for the time.


YearAgeTmPosNo.GGSQBrecAttY/A+NY/A+AY/A+ANY/A+Cmp%+TD%+Int%+Sack%+Rate+
197028DAL12832-1-0829774746610780624076
1971*29DALQB12131010-0-021113912814713912512813290144
197331DALQB12141410-4-028613611913112113313510076134
197432DALQB1214148-6-03601091031081051019111084104
1975*33DALQB1213139-4-034811611511411411310710594113
1976*34DALQB12141411-3-036911211511812011297123108116
1977*35DALQB12141412-2-0361111113123124117110130105125
1978*36DALQB12151511-4-0413123123128129110124115105126
1979*37DALQB12161611-5-0461120120133133111121131101132
 

data

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I agree.

People forget, Taylor stepped on the field as a rookie and was the best guy at what he did. Almost instantly. No faggy Jerry Rice hiccups.
I won’t argue if Lawrence Taylor is #1. He’s my #2.

I went with Rice cuz he’s just by far and away statistically ahead of the next WR and Rice did it at a top level longer than LT.

By nature of LT’s position, there aren’t as many stats to analyze how much better he was at LBer than anyone else. But, yeah, I’d agree with LT at #1 because of how he, as an individual player less a scheme, changed the game.
 

ravidubey

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And Rice was great, but Moss and Owens dominated regardless of who the QB was and they were clearly more physically talented.
 

data

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Honestly a QB should be number 1. Just the way the NFL is.
I get your point, but then shouldn’t the top 3 or 5 be all QBs?

It’ll be interesting to see when the first position is duplicated on the Top 10. I’m guessing QB #1 and then at #6
 

data

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As for the article and ranking, I'm disappointed that this all-star cast of the Athletic didn't provide harder hitting analysis of why he's only #78. Maybe they'll do this once the full list is released.

Anyhow, the Athletic states an 11-year career, but they don't go further to say that Staubach's career is really only 8 years worth due to 2 years on the bench (1969 and 1970 only had 4 starts combined) and 1 year injured (1972). Drafted in 1964, Staubach had approx 6 years of stats accumulation taken away.

Nobody ever accounts for these six years. Maybe that's why the Athletic only has Staubach as #78. Will more recent QBs be regarded/placed higher than Staubach because the bloated passing stats of today show it and, furthermore, while Staubach fronted them 6 years head-start? That's BS.

So, I'm going to do something that I've never seen anywhere else and better represent Staubach's total career statistics as if he wasn't an American hero, but just a Heisman-winning QB drafted in 1964. Landry famously didn't like rookies starting, so I'm tossing out 1964 and assuming Staubach would've started his Heisman winner in 1965. I'm still keeping his injured 1972 season the same.

Anyhow, I admit I'm still underestimating Staubach's career achievements, milestones, stats and ranking because all I'm doing is adding Don Meredith's and Craig Morton's stats from 1965 to 1970, representing the 77 games Staubach "missed". Easy stretch to say Staubach would've put up better stats than Morton and Meredith (and possibly won more NFCC and SBs).

Later on, I'll try to put a Staubach factor onto 1965 to 1970, but for now, I'm interested to see where Staubach would be with a full 14 starting years under his belt. Even moreso, today's 16 vs yesterday's 14 games per regular season robs Staubach of 12 regular season games (1965-1970), too.

-----

First number is actual stats/rank while numbers in (parentheses) is the adjusted stats/rank. Added some QB names to provide quick context.

Resume:
Super Bowl Appearances: 4, #T3 with Montana, Bradshaw, Kelly and behind Elway (5, #T2)
NFCC Appearances: 5, #T5 behind Brady, Montana, Elway, Bradshaw and tied with Rodgers, Roethlisberger, Manning, McNabb, Favre, Kelly, Stabler (8, #2)
Regular Season Wins: 85, #T38 with Matt Hasselbeck (142, #8 behind Dan Marino)

Stats and Rankings as of Today:
Completions: 1685, #103 behind Jake Delhomme (2776, #36 behind Russell Wilson)
Yards: 22700, #94 behind Andrew Luck (39783, #23 behind Joe Montana)
TDs: 153, #89 behind Jeff Garcia (294, #T13 with Carson Palmer behind John Elway)

Stats and Rankings as of 2010 (to depict Staubach’s ranking before the bloated stats of the last ten years):
Completions: 1685,#82 (2776, #21)
Yards: 22700, #74 (39783, #13)
TDs: 153, #58 (294, #6)

-----
Overall...while the stats bump is significant, I’m not confident it'd significantly elevate Staubach's legacy. More importantly, though, the Cowboys lost two NFCC to the Packers in addition to reaching Super Bowl V during Staubach’s age 24, 25 and 28. Three close games the Cowboys lost starting Meredith/Morton. Given how close these three games were, what if we had Staubach for those three games?

Staubach at least gets a fifth SB appearance for Super Bowl V and possibly a third SB ring. Then, maybe getting a sixth or seventh Super Bowl appearance if we beat the Packers to reach Super Bowl I and/or II; maybe that's four or five SB rings for Staubach.

At worst, this 2-3 Super Bowl record (still assuming SB V loss) puts Staubach on par with Elway. However a win at 3-2, or 4-2 record would elevate Staubach ahead of everyone sans Brady, tied with Bradshaw and Montana. I'm not going to say 5-2 best-case scenario, but 3-2, 3-3 or 4-2 is rarified air. This would push up Staubach’s legacy and ranking whereas today it’s not uncommon for ppl to rank Favre (1-1 SB), Peyton (2-1 SB), Marino (0-1 SB) and Elway in front of Staubach.

Even within our own fanbase, think about how 3 SB rings would affect Cowboys fans with some believing Aikman is the greatest franchise QB because of 3 rings. If Staubach were at least 3-2, it’s undisputed Staubach.
 
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Genghis Khan

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As for the article and ranking, I'm disappointed that this all-star cast of the Athletic didn't provide harder hitting analysis of why he's only #78. Maybe they'll do this once the full list is released.

Anyhow, the Athletic states an 11-year career, but they don't go further to say that Staubach's career is really only 8 years worth due to 2 years on the bench (1969 and 1970 only had 4 starts combined) and 1 year injured (1972). Drafted in 1964, Staubach had approx 6 years of stats accumulation taken away.

Nobody ever accounts for these six years. Maybe that's why the Athletic only has Staubach as #78. Will more recent QBs be regarded/placed higher than Staubach because the bloated passing stats of today show it and, furthermore, while Staubach fronted them 6 years head-start? That's BS.

So, I'm going to do something that I've never seen anywhere else, though, and try to better represent Staubach's total career statistics as if he wasn't an American hero, but just a Heisman-winning QB drafted in 1964. Landry famously didn't like rookies starting, so I'm tossing out 1964 and assuming Staubach would've started his Heisman winner in 1965. I'm still keeping his injured 1972 season the same.

Anyhow, I admit I'm still underestimating Staubach's career achievements, milestones, stats and ranking because all I'm doing is adding Don Meredith's and Craig Morton's stats from 1965 to 1970, representing the 77 games Staubach "missed". Easy stretch to say Staubach would've put up better stats than Morton and Meredith (and possibly won more NFCC and SBs).

Later on, I'll try to put a Staubach factor onto 1965 to 1970, but for now, I'm interested to see where Staubach would be with a full 14 starting years under his belt. Even moreso, today's 16 vs yesterday's 14 games per regular season robs Staubach of 12 regular season games (1965-1970), too.

-----

First number is actual stats/rank while numbers in (parentheses) is the adjusted stats/rank. Added some QB names to provide quick context.

Resume:
Super Bowl Appearances: 4, #T2 with Montana, Bradshaw, Kelly (5, #3)
NFCC Appearances: 5, #T5 behind Brady, Montana, Elway, Bradshaw and tied with Rodgers, Roethlisberger, Manning, McNabb, Favre, Kelly, Stabler (8, #2)
Regular Season Wins: 85, #T38 with Matt Hasselbeck (142, #8 behind Dan Marino)

Stats as of Today:
Completions: 1685, #103 behind Jake Delhomme (2776, #36 behind Russell Wilson)
Yards: 22700, #94 behind Andrew Luck (39783, #23 behind Joe Montana)
TDs: 153, #89 behind Jeff Garcia (294, #T13 with Carson Palmer behind John Elway)

Stats as of 2010:
Completions: 1685,#82 (2776, #21)
Yards: 22700, #74 (39783, #13)
TDs: 153, #58 (294, #6)

-----
Overall...while the stats bump is significant, I don't know if it'd have an affect on Staubach's legacy. However, more importantly, though, Meredith/Morton lost two NFCC to the Packers in addition to reaching Super Bowl V. Three close games the Cowboys lost without Staubach. Given how close these three games were, what if...

A fourth SB appearance for Super Bowl V and possibly a third SB ring. Then, getting a sixth or seventh Super Bowl appearance if we beat the Packers once to reach Super Bowl I and/or II; maybe that's four or five SB rings.

At worst, this 2-3 Super Bowl record (assuming SB V loss) puts Staubach on par with Elway. However a win at 3-2, or 4-2 record would elevate Staubach ahead of everyone sans Brady, Bradshaw and Montana. I'm not going to say 5-2 best-case scenario. This is a stark contrast to people not uncommonly putting Favre, Peyton, Marino, Elway in front of Staubach.

Top quality post. Props.
 

p1_

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I don't think Brady is the best football player of all time. Far from it, actually. I don't even think he was the best QB.

Winningest? Sure. Best? Nope.
So what criteria do you use to say who is the best QB?
 

data

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So what criteria do you use to say who is the best QB?
I look at it as who’s in your tier.

Its kinda like that Build-Your-$15-Dream-Squad in the other thread...I put Marino, Montana or Peyton in place of Brady and I don’t think there’s much of a drop-off, if any.

LT is heads and shoulders above the next OLB and impactful enough that he revolutionized offensive schemes around the OLB position, in addition to redefining the position itself.

Rice is statistically the most dominant position player. Name a category and he’s almost always #1. Furthermore, he’s probably way ahead of whoever is #2. All-time TDs, all-time yards, all-time receptions, most All-Pro selections, playoff TDs, playoff receiving yards, Super Bowl scrimmage and receiving yards, SB TDs.
 
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Iamtdg

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As for the article and ranking, I'm disappointed that this all-star cast of the Athletic didn't provide harder hitting analysis of why he's only #78. Maybe they'll do this once the full list is released.

Anyhow, the Athletic states an 11-year career, but they don't go further to say that Staubach's career is really only 8 years worth due to 2 years on the bench (1969 and 1970 only had 4 starts combined) and 1 year injured (1972). Drafted in 1964, Staubach had approx 6 years of stats accumulation taken away.

Nobody ever accounts for these six years. Maybe that's why the Athletic only has Staubach as #78. Will more recent QBs be regarded/placed higher than Staubach because the bloated passing stats of today show it and, furthermore, while Staubach fronted them 6 years head-start? That's BS.

So, I'm going to do something that I've never seen anywhere else and better represent Staubach's total career statistics as if he wasn't an American hero, but just a Heisman-winning QB drafted in 1964. Landry famously didn't like rookies starting, so I'm tossing out 1964 and assuming Staubach would've started his Heisman winner in 1965. I'm still keeping his injured 1972 season the same.

Anyhow, I admit I'm still underestimating Staubach's career achievements, milestones, stats and ranking because all I'm doing is adding Don Meredith's and Craig Morton's stats from 1965 to 1970, representing the 77 games Staubach "missed". Easy stretch to say Staubach would've put up better stats than Morton and Meredith (and possibly won more NFCC and SBs).

Later on, I'll try to put a Staubach factor onto 1965 to 1970, but for now, I'm interested to see where Staubach would be with a full 14 starting years under his belt. Even moreso, today's 16 vs yesterday's 14 games per regular season robs Staubach of 12 regular season games (1965-1970), too.

-----

First number is actual stats/rank while numbers in (parentheses) is the adjusted stats/rank. Added some QB names to provide quick context.

Resume:
Super Bowl Appearances: 4, #T3 with Montana, Bradshaw, Kelly and behind Elway (5, #T2)
NFCC Appearances: 5, #T5 behind Brady, Montana, Elway, Bradshaw and tied with Rodgers, Roethlisberger, Manning, McNabb, Favre, Kelly, Stabler (8, #2)
Regular Season Wins: 85, #T38 with Matt Hasselbeck (142, #8 behind Dan Marino)

Stats and Rankings as of Today:
Completions: 1685, #103 behind Jake Delhomme (2776, #36 behind Russell Wilson)
Yards: 22700, #94 behind Andrew Luck (39783, #23 behind Joe Montana)
TDs: 153, #89 behind Jeff Garcia (294, #T13 with Carson Palmer behind John Elway)

Stats and Rankings as of 2010 (to depict Staubach’s ranking before the bloated stats of the last ten years):
Completions: 1685,#82 (2776, #21)
Yards: 22700, #74 (39783, #13)
TDs: 153, #58 (294, #6)

-----
Overall...while the stats bump is significant, I’m not confident it'd significantly elevate Staubach's legacy. More importantly, though, the Cowboys lost two NFCC to the Packers in addition to reaching Super Bowl V during Staubach’s age 24, 25 and 28. Three close games the Cowboys lost starting Meredith/Morton. Given how close these three games were, what if we had Staubach for those three games?

Staubach at least gets a fifth SB appearance for Super Bowl V and possibly a third SB ring. Then, maybe getting a sixth or seventh Super Bowl appearance if we beat the Packers to reach Super Bowl I and/or II; maybe that's four or five SB rings for Staubach.

At worst, this 2-3 Super Bowl record (still assuming SB V loss) puts Staubach on par with Elway. However a win at 3-2, or 4-2 record would elevate Staubach ahead of everyone sans Brady, tied with Bradshaw and Montana. I'm not going to say 5-2 best-case scenario, but 3-2, 3-3 or 4-2 is rarified air. This would push up Staubach’s legacy and ranking whereas today it’s not uncommon for ppl to rank Favre (1-1 SB), Peyton (2-1 SB), Marino (0-1 SB) and Elway in front of Staubach.

Even within our own fanbase, think about how 3 SB rings would affect Cowboys fans with some believing Aikman is the greatest franchise QB because of 3 rings. If Staubach were at least 3-2, it’s undisputed Staubach.
Post more (like this), seriously.
 
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