Garrett Postmortem Thread...

data

Forbes #1
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Garrett is tied for worst coach in franchise history with Wade Phillips.

Gailey completely revamped the offense and still made the playoffs, but short leash and salary cap restrictions paying for past-prime Triplets and shitastic Jerruh drafts never gave him the chance to fully develop.

Campo did the most with the least. 5-11 was commendable with that squad and shitty Jerruh drafts. If Garrett was handicapped by OL, my gawd what vocabulary describes what Campo had? In any case, do you remember games where coaching fucked it up? Screwing up 4th quarters, bumbling clock management?

Switzer was good enough to not fuck it up and at least reached two NFCC.

It’s not Garrett’s fault for being hired prematurely, but ,objectively, fact remains that his first three years he cost the team enough games that we couldn’t even make the playoffs. The cavalcade of mistakes, the litany of WTF just happened moments that continued in the playoffs and his final year here. Harlem Globetrotter comical. Not even Marvin Lewis, Garrett’s reign was more like Wayne Fontes.
 

Simpleton

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Yeah, uh, if anything, THIS paragraph is what doesn't agree with Sturm. He even says Garrett was a "bright offensive mind," or something along those lines. I wouldn't get carried away with giving him too much credit, but this is where the undersell gets push back from me.

What, he gets no credit for helping guys like Romo, Austin, Barber, Dez, Murray, guys who he started coaching very early in their careers?

This is where we go off the rails. "It was ALL the talent. Garrett did nothing. He held them back."

No, of course, their high flying numbers had nothing to do with his coaching -- either his development from teaching skills at practice or his game-plans and playcalls for Sunday.

Come on. This is where it gets ridiculous. You have people trying to sell that he had nothing to do with a fourth round QB coming in here and putting together a Pro Bowl season and career to date. Trying to sell that he had nothing to do with relatively high-ranking offenses over the years.

He absolutely had a hand in all this.

And we can agree that he deserved to be fired without going crazy trying to deny any positive he had here. You can maintain that he should have been fired in 2012 and say that the negatives outweighed the positives every year, but still acknowledge there were some positives.

That's where this debate becomes a problem so consistently from my perspective.



It wouldn't surprise me to see Jones perform over his head in this year or coming years. Yeah I do suspect they will ride Barkley but the OL is being reinforced and perhaps some of the simplicity which doomed Garrett from advancing may help Jones develop a bit.

Of course he's not gonna have a McVay type influence, McVay had a great coaching performance for a couple years there, he was a very hot coaching prospect and everyone agrees Garrett is not that. It's just that we also can't sit here and deny credit for what positives do occur, even if they aren't enough.
Do you want to know why almost nobody actually engages you seriously on this topic?

Because you try to squeeze out every last drop of credit and talk around mostly every shortcoming of a HC who handicapped this team for nearly a decade, who was nearly fired 2 or 3 times by the only organization who wouldn't have fired him several times over, only to talk them into firing the DC or clearing out the offensive assistants or agreeing to give up play-calling duties, and who ultimately wasted several prime seasons of contending-level talent.

A HC who is the definition of replacement level, average at best in almost every single way, and a guy who almost unanimously should've been fired years earlier, yet you want to parse out how much credit he deserves for 2014 or 2016, and talk around maybe why it was fine that he was kept around for a decade with nothing to show for it.

He was brought in for his supposed offensive pedigree, and he did a nice job shifting from the Parcells conservative mindset to an aggressive passing attack from 07-09. The offenses in 2007 and 2009 were very good, but that was almost exclusively with talent that was fully formed when he got here in 2007. Guys like Romo, Owens, Barber, Witten, Flozell, Gurode, Austin, etc. had been with the team for years, or in Owens case the NFL for years.

Then when the talent started to hollow out from 2011-13 everything went to shit, the offense was inconsistent at best, often starting slow, getting down, and then relying on Romo to go no-huddle to drag them back into games with unscripted "back yard ball". Even in 2013 when we had the makings of our dominant 2014 offense Garrett's dumbass refused to adjust the way he called plays or designed the offense, and was more or less forced into ceding play-calling to Linehan, but more importantly leaning more heavily on the run game/OL.

Think about that, the organization that loved him so, Jerry Jones who looked at him like a son, forced him to give up play-calling and then in 2014 we had an absolutely dominant offense with more or less the same roster we had in 2013.

To be fair I don't give Linehan or Garrett much credit for 2014 or 2016 either way, I think it was mostly the product of an all-time type OL and getting peak performances from fresh, motivated RB's, combined with an otherwise very talented depth chart, but the fact remains that we had more or less the same offense in 2013 as in 2014 and it took removing Garrett as play-caller to get to the level they reached.

And do you know why people tend to downplay the successes and amplify the failures?

Because anytime the talent wasn't at completely optimal levels, the offense (and the team) either floundered or was average. 2017, even with Elliott, 2018 before the Cooper trade, and even then the offense was nowhere near elite even with Dak/Elliott/Tyron/Martin/Cooper, in 2019 we had probably the best offensive roster outside of Kansas City and the offense was average to bad against good opponents.

Whatever our talent level was, that's what we were, he almost never did anything to elevate the team to heights beyond what their baseline talent was, and often times he was a hindrance (late game management, being removed as play-caller, allowing the team to come out flat against GB in 2016 even though he was now a "walkaround coach"). The fact that you feel the need to protect a coach like that and argue continuously just to try to convince people that he was average, maybe, is pretty ridiculous.
 

data

Forbes #1
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The Ford Pinto was a solid below average car. Yeah, it had cases of known explosions, but not each and every one and that’s only after a rear-end collision at specific angle and speed. Hardly the worst car ever built.
 

NoDak

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It’s not Garrett’s fault for being hired prematurely
I don't buy this. Yeah, Jerry was ultimately the one making the hire. But it was Garrett worming his way into position, knowing he had Jerry's eye.

I was actually ok with hiring him as OC. Didn't agree with the order it was done, but thought that he would be a bright young mind that would really help our offense out. Thought he had a future in NFL coaching.

But when I witnessed how he fucked over Wade Phillips to position himself for the HC job, I lost all respect for him. It was obvious towards the end how he was sandbagging the offense. And then when the offense looks completely different and takes off when he gets the job? Right. Some players coming out and saying they were given different playbooks after Wade left was just more proof. Trying to deny this just shows ignorance and bias.

Fuck Jason Garret. He wasn't even an average coach here. He was a bad coach that good players drug along through the regular season. When coaching needed to step forward in the playoffs, he showed his true colors of ineptitude.
 

Smitty

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Do you want to know why almost nobody actually engages you seriously on this topic?
Oh I'm quite aware of why no one wants to engage seriously on this topic.

Because you try to squeeze out every last drop of credit
All I said is that he does deserve some credit for those years. That's not "squeezing every last drop" out. Giving any credit at all is taboo here, yet that's reality. There is some to be assigned.

You may not want to read the part 3 that's coming up. You might be triggered.

and talk around mostly every shortcoming of a HC who handicapped this team for nearly a decade
Absolutely untrue. I've said here and many times over, specifically in regards to Sturm's critiques, that I agree with them. What is more to add? He is right about most of those points. To the extent anything is left unsaid it's said sufficiently many times over by everyone else. Again, I'm not gonna participate in the virtue signalling by pulling my hair out by message board post to show I'm the one who is the most anguished by remembering all the errors, as occasionally happens here.

"I hate Garrett the most!"

"No, I hate Garrett the most!"

"Well I think he was the stupidest coach ever!"

"Well I think he was the stupidest human ever! And did I mention he went to an Ivy League School! LOLZ"


No thanks.

There's no need to talk around anything. I acknowledge it for the most part.

What doesn't get any play here and what does need to be stated is that there were some positives. If only for evaluating the opponent, now, as he's with the Giants.

who was nearly fired 2 or 3 times by the only organization who wouldn't have fired him several times over, only to talk them into firing the DC or clearing out the offensive assistants or agreeing to give up play-calling duties, and who ultimately wasted several prime seasons of contending-level talent.

A HC who is the definition of replacement level, average at best in almost every single way, and a guy who almost unanimously should've been fired years earlier, yet you want to parse out how much credit he deserves for 2014 or 2016, and talk around maybe why it was fine that he was kept around for a decade with nothing to show for it.
Who said it was fine? I have said and repeated here the correct move was to do a coaching search to upgrade him as early as 2015.

I just also said I understand why you don't fire him after 2014 or 2016 or even 2018.

Also, average and replacement level are not the same thing.

And do you know why people tend to downplay the successes and amplify the failures?

Because anytime the talent wasn't at completely optimal levels, the offense (and the team) either floundered or was average.
That's what happens with average coaches.

Doesn't mean they don't deserve any credit for anything. A more nuanced approach is necessary. I'm happy that Sturm is now providing one, because I more or less agree with him so far -- we will see what the rest of his post looks like. I suspect it will be very reasonable.

Treating everyone who isn't Jimmy Johnson like they are Dave Campo is a poor analysis and a stupid way to look at things. Bill Parcells gets shit on around here not infrequently these days when he was the best thing to happen to us in the entire post-Jimmy Cowboys history so far.
 

bbgun

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If there's anything to be said in his defense (ugh), it's that many of those losses involved horrific collapses on defense after the offense did its job. Yes, he's the coach of the whole team, but let's face it: he outsourced the defense to others.
 

Simpleton

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If there's anything to be said in his defense (ugh), it's that many of those losses involved horrific collapses on defense after the offense did its job. Yes, he's the coach of the whole team, but let's face it: he outsourced the defense to others.
This is true, although within those very same seasons there were either offensive collapses or terrible late game management from Garrett.

In the 2011 finale against the Giants the offense (OL mainly) was horrific, the offense was completely ineffective in the season finale against the Redskins in 2012, in 2017 the offense shit the bed at home in a must win against Seattle, last year the offense scored 9 points against Philly.

The defense collapsed multiple times as well over the years, probably more so than the offense, but the offense did so in several key situations as well.

Long story short, the failures were often comprehensive.
 

bbgun

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The defense collapsed multiple times as well over the years, probably more so than the offense, but the offense did so in several key situations as well.
Indeed, but I'm primarily referencing the ones Sturm highlighted (two collapses vs Detroit and one vs the Pack). In each of those games, the offense scored more than enough to win. Another one he omitted was the Thanksgiving game vs New Orleans that Kitna pretty much wrapped up only to be undone by another late game defensive choke job.
 

NoDak

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I think the funniest thing about this whole thing with Schmitty sticking up for Garrett and chastising those that bag on him, is that he did the exact same thing to Wade Phillips. Hell, he was leading the charge at disparaging him at every opportunity.

Wade Phillips has forgotten more about coaching than Jason Garrett will ever know.
 

bbgun

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His worst coaching was the Chaz Green fiasco. It's like Tyron Smith was a jenga piece that brought the whole tower down.
 

Simpleton

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Oh I'm quite aware of why no one wants to engage seriously on this topic.



All I said is that he does deserve some credit for those years. That's not "squeezing every last drop" out. Giving any credit at all is taboo here, yet that's reality. There is some to be assigned.

You may not want to read the part 3 that's coming up. You might be triggered.



Absolutely untrue. I've said here and many times over, specifically in regards to Sturm's critiques, that I agree with them. What is more to add? He is right about most of those points. To the extent anything is left unsaid it's said sufficiently many times over by everyone else. Again, I'm not gonna participate in the virtue signalling by pulling my hair out by message board post to show I'm the one who is the most anguished by remembering all the errors, as occasionally happens here.

"I hate Garrett the most!"

"No, I hate Garrett the most!"

"Well I think he was the stupidest coach ever!"

"Well I think he was the stupidest human ever! And did I mention he went to an Ivy League School! LOLZ"


No thanks.

There's no need to talk around anything. I acknowledge it for the most part.

What doesn't get any play here and what does need to be stated is that there were some positives. If only for evaluating the opponent, now, as he's with the Giants.



Who said it was fine? I have said and repeated here the correct move was to do a coaching search to upgrade him as early as 2015.

I just also said I understand why you don't fire him after 2014 or 2016 or even 2018.

Also, average and replacement level are not the same thing.



That's what happens with average coaches.

Doesn't mean they don't deserve any credit for anything. A more nuanced approach is necessary. I'm happy that Sturm is now providing one, because I more or less agree with him so far -- we will see what the rest of his post looks like. I suspect it will be very reasonable.

Treating everyone who isn't Jimmy Johnson like they are Dave Campo is a poor analysis and a stupid way to look at things. Bill Parcells gets shit on around here not infrequently these days when he was the best thing to happen to us in the entire post-Jimmy Cowboys history so far.
Why is a more nuanced approach necessary? He barely accomplished anything and the only thing he'll be remembered for is squandering time.

If Garrett was around for 3-5 years that'd be one thing, he'd be just another average (maybe) HC relegated to the dustbin of history that nobody would ever think about or have too much hatred for, like Phillips. The issue, and most of the animosity, comes from how unnecessarily long the tenure was.

Second most games coached in Cowboys history behind Landry, at the time of his firing he was like the 5th-longest tenured coach in the league with all the guys in front of him having won a SB, etc.

Jerry deserves the blame for unnecessarily keeping him around, but it's completely natural for people to react more strongly based on how long the tenure was, even if he wasn't a complete flame out like a Freddie Kitchens.

Can you give me a list of what it is that you think Garrett deserves credit for?

I'm guessing the majority of it will be very flimsy, i.e. how good the 2014 offense was (after he was removed as play-caller), the supposed "development of Dak" despite the fact that Dak's development seemed relatively stunted until Jon Kitna (lol) coached him for one damn year, or for prioritizing the OL, which is legitimate to an extent but probably overblown considering how he seemingly didn't even want Frederick and started off the OL rebuild with shitbirds like Nate Livings, Mackenzy Bernadeau and Phil Costa.
 

Simpleton

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His worst coaching was the Chaz Green fiasco. It's like Tyron Smith was a jenga piece that brought the whole tower down.
Yea, which is a perfect example of how he/Linehan/whoever you want to consider the offensive braintrust were unwilling or unable to adjust on the fly based on circumstances.

They were out there running the same offense against Atlanta as if it was November 2016.
 

p1_

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Why is a more nuanced approach necessary? He barely accomplished anything and the only thing he'll be remembered for is squandering time.

If Garrett was around for 3-5 years that'd be one thing, he'd be just another average (maybe) HC relegated to the dustbin of history that nobody would ever think about or have too much hatred for, like Phillips. The issue, and most of the animosity, comes from how unnecessarily long the tenure was.

Second most games coached in Cowboys history behind Landry, at the time of his firing he was like the 5th-longest tenured coach in the league with all the guys in front of him having won a SB, etc.

Jerry deserves the blame for unnecessarily keeping him around, but it's completely natural for people to react more strongly based on how long the tenure was, even if he wasn't a complete flame out like a Freddie Kitchens.

Can you give me a list of what it is that you think Garrett deserves credit for?

I'm guessing the majority of it will be very flimsy, i.e. how good the 2014 offense was (after he was removed as play-caller), the supposed "development of Dak" despite the fact that Dak's development seemed relatively stunted until Jon Kitna (lol) coached him for one damn year, or for prioritizing the OL, which is legitimate to an extent but probably overblown considering how he seemingly didn't even want Frederick and started off the OL rebuild with shitbirds like Nate Livings, Mackenzy Bernadeau and Phil Costa.
5 years too long, after canning others far more quickly. Gailey, in particular, deserved a longer look than he got. And in my opinion, was a much better coach than Garrett.
 

data

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Oh I'm quite aware of why no one wants to engage seriously on this topic.
There's the ole condescending, sanctimonious, know-it-all Schmitty bubbling to the surface. We've missed you.


All I said is that he does deserve some credit for those years. That's not "squeezing every last drop" out. Giving any credit at all is taboo here, yet that's reality. There is some to be assigned.
When you take a step back, though, John Wilkes Booth was a terrific actor. Let's not let that factoid get lost in all this.


You may not want to read the part 3 that's coming up. You might be triggered.
:lol

Quivering in our knickers. Clutching our purses. The deepest, darkest secrets are about to be unveiled to the world.

...what does need to be stated is that there were some positives...

...I'm happy that Sturm is now providing one
Why?

...and why Garrett?

Why don't you take up against the Quincy Carter-bashers? Why not defend the honor of Rob Pettiti?
 

Simpleton

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The only difference between Wade Phillips and Jason Garrett is that Garrett managed to keep the team from cratering for a longer period of time and had a personal relationship with the Jones family, which perhaps helped diminish Jerry's influence on the draft/personnel decisions.

That's it.

Their tenure in Dallas was damn near identical (2 NFC divisional appearances/NFC East titles, 1-2 playoff record for Phillips in 4 years, 3 divisional appearances/NFC East titles, 2-3 playoff record in 9 for Garrett, winning % was similar) while outside of Dallas Phillips has a history of being a top tier, near elite coordinator. We'll see if Garrett can do the same.
 

ravidubey

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The only difference between Wade Phillips and Jason Garrett is that Garrett managed to keep the team from cratering for a longer period of time and had a personal relationship with the Jones family, which perhaps helped diminish Jerry's influence on the draft/personnel decisions.

That's it.

Their tenure in Dallas was damn near identical (2 NFC divisional appearances/NFC East titles, 1-2 playoff record for Phillips in 4 years, 3 divisional appearances/NFC East titles, 2-3 playoff record in 9 for Garrett, winning % was similar) while outside of Dallas Phillips has a history of being a top tier, near elite coordinator. We'll see if Garrett can do the same.
And both squandered opportunities with some really talented players.

Wade had his hands tied with Garrett being forced upon him and essentially half the team taken from his control and direct influence. That point can't be emphasized enough, IMO.

I think Wade knows a whole lot more about defensive coaching than Garrett does on the other side of the ball, and neither are good head coaches.
 

Smitty

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Why is a more nuanced approach necessary? He barely accomplished anything and the only thing he'll be remembered for is squandering time.

If Garrett was around for 3-5 years that'd be one thing, he'd be just another average (maybe) HC relegated to the dustbin of history that nobody would ever think about or have too much hatred for, like Phillips. The issue, and most of the animosity, comes from how unnecessarily long the tenure was.

Second most games coached in Cowboys history behind Landry, at the time of his firing he was like the 5th-longest tenured coach in the league with all the guys in front of him having won a SB, etc.

Jerry deserves the blame for unnecessarily keeping him around, but it's completely natural for people to react more strongly based on how long the tenure was, even if he wasn't a complete flame out like a Freddie Kitchens.

Can you give me a list of what it is that you think Garrett deserves credit for?

I'm guessing the majority of it will be very flimsy, i.e. how good the 2014 offense was (after he was removed as play-caller), the supposed "development of Dak" despite the fact that Dak's development seemed relatively stunted until Jon Kitna (lol) coached him for one damn year, or for prioritizing the OL, which is legitimate to an extent but probably overblown considering how he seemingly didn't even want Frederick and started off the OL rebuild with shitbirds like Nate Livings, Mackenzy Bernadeau and Phil Costa.
I literally just said why a more nuanced approach is necessary. Anyway, no point in continuing to go around and around.

I'll defer to Sturm at this point, who so far much more closely mirrors my take than he does the rest of this board's.
 

Smitty

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When you take a step back, though, John Wilkes Booth was a terrific actor. Let's not let that factoid get lost in all this.
No condescension or sanctimony here.

Just Smitty is not allowed to do it.
 
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