Expert Witness: Trayvon Martin was on top of Zimmerman when teen was shot

Cowboysrock55

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Zimmerman profiled Martin because he was black and assumed he was up to no good...not sure why Martin could not profile Zimmerman because he was Latin. He could have felt threatened, but you can't know that for sure now.
He could have profiled him the same way. You can't take a swing at someone based on them briskly walking next to you and asking questions. In no way is that self defense. Briskly walking and questions don't constitute an attack that I am aware of. (In no way am I saying that this is what actually happened by the way)
 

Carp

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He could have profiled him the same way. You can't take a swing at someone based on them briskly walking next to you and asking questions. In no way is that self defense. Briskly walking and questions don't constitute an attack that I am aware of. (In no way am I saying that this is what actually happened by the way)
What did he ask him exactly? He never identified himself as part of the neighborhood watch.
 

UncleMilti

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If you want to see how fucking retarded America is in general, go read the "comments" section of any Zimmerman article on CNN. I mean, its beyond pathetic some of "facts" people present on this trial.
 

NoDak

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What did he ask him exactly? He never identified himself as part of the neighborhood watch.
Doesn't matter what he asked him. Having somebody ask you questions (or walk after you briskly, for that matter) doesn't give the right to strike out physically.
 

Smitty

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The biggest problem I have with the case is why does Trayvon get no self defense remedies.

If somebody follows you in a car and then gets out of the car to run after you or at least walk briskly and start asking me questions I have a right to defend myself.

I know none of us knows what really occurred, but I was surprised this was never brought up by the prosecution.
The right to defend yourself with force does not arise until someone else uses force against you or at least puts you in reasonable fear of the use of such force.

Martin pummeled the hell out of Zimmerman. So Zimmerman very clearly has a self defense claim.

But in Martin's case, there is no evidence -- no testimony, no witnesses, no physical evidence, no video, no injuries on Martin's body (other than the ultimate gunshot wound) -- that indicate he was attacked first.

The key here is that "someone following Martin" does not give Martin the right to use force to defend himself. So your statement above that "if someone follows me I have the right to defend myself" is legally incorrect, you do not have the right to attack someone who is following you no matter how scared you are, unless there is more to it than that (Did Zimmerman point the gun at Martin? That would give rise to self-defense, but again, no evidence of that happening).

Therefore when Martin attacks Zimmerman, it is NOT justified self defense.

Now every Martin supporter continues to repeat the same line "But Zimmerman was following Martin with a gun, Martin must have been scared, he was defending himself."

There is no evidence that the gun was out or that Martin could see the gun at that point. In the absence of evidence that there was a physical attack by Zimmerman first or that he was actually doing more than following Martin, once again, Martin is not entitled to use force to defend himself.

It's that simple.
 
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L.T. Fan

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What did he ask him exactly? He never identified himself as part of the neighborhood watch.
He didn't have to identify himself. The primary thing to remember about this case is at what point did it become a crime. The facts that were accepted by the jury was that a crime was committed when Martin threw a punch and the subsequent events that ensued. That is what the case is about and all other dialogue is preferential bantering.
 

midswat

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The right to defend yourself with force does not arise until someone else uses force against you or at least puts you in reasonable fear of the use of such force.

Martin pummeled the hell out of Zimmerman. So Zimmerman very clearly has a self defense claim.

But in Martin's case, there is no evidence -- no testimony, no witnesses, no physical evidence, no video, no injuries on Martin's body (other than the ultimate gunshot wound) -- that indicate he was attacked first.

The key here is that "someone following Martin" does not give Martin the right to use force to defend himself. Therefore when Martin attacks Zimmerman, it is NOT justified self defense.

Now every Martin supporter continues to repeat the same line "But Zimmerman was following Martin with a gun, Martin must have been scared, he was defending himself."

There is no evidence that the gun was out or that Martin could see the gun at that point. In the absence of evidence that there was a physical attack by Zimmerman first or that he was actually doing more than following Martin, once again, Martin is not entitled to use force to defend himself.

It's that simple.
We finally see eye to eye on something.

Not to get your hopes up, but you might find yourself with a new facebook friend request in the near future.
 

Smitty

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By SENI TIENABESO and MATT GUTMAN

Only the six female jurors know for certain what testimony or evidence convinced them to acquit George Zimmerman of murder charges in the death of Trayvon Martin, but there were key moments in the trial that appeared to undermine the prosecution's case for conviction. Here are five of them.

Chris Serino was the lead investigator looking into the shooting of Martin and initially urged the Sanford, Fla., prosecutor to charge Zimmerman with manslaughter, a recommendation that was rejected.

Serino was called to the stand by the prosecution and was expected to be a key witness against Zimmerman. In his "just-the-facts" style of answering questions, Serino was repeatedly questioned by the prosecution and defense about Zimmerman's version of what happened that night. But in a surprise, the investigator was asked by Zimmerman's lawyer whether he believed Zimmerman was telling the truth, and the cop answered, "Yes."

The next day the prosecution asked that the jurors be directed to disregard Serino's comment and the judge agreed, but the damage may have been done.

John Good was another prosecution witness whose words may have helped Zimmerman more than the prosecution. Good lived near where the fatal shot was fired and appeared to have had the best view of the brief fight between Zimmerman and Martin.

Good testified that he saw what he believed to be Martin on top of Zimmerman. "The color on top was dark and the color at bottom was…red," Good said referring to the men's clothing. At another point he told the court that the person on the bottom had "lighter skin color."

Zimmerman is a white Hispanic who was wearing a red and black jacket that night. Martin, who was black, was wearing a dark sweatshirt.

"The person on the bottom, I could hear a 'Help,'" Good said.

Under cross examination by Zimmerman's lawyer, Good said he believes he saw Martin on top punching Zimmerman "MMA style," a reference to mixed martial arts.

"The person on top was ground and pounding the person on the bottom?"asked Zimmerman attorney Mark O'Mara.

"Correct," said Good

Rachel Jeantel was Trayvon Martin's friend who was talking with him on a cell phone until just moments before Martin was killed. She told the jury that Martin was scared of a "creepy a** cracker" who was following him and just before losing contact with Martin said she heard him say, "Get off. Get off."

But under a grueling cross examination by Zimmerman's lawyer Don West Jeantel conceded that it was difficult to hear what Martin was saying and that she did not know who threw the first punch when Zimmerman and Martin came face to face.

"The last thing you heard was something hitting somebody?" West asked her.

"Trayvon got hit," Jeantel said.

"You don't know that, do you?" the defense lawyer said.

"No sir," she said.

"You don't know that he didn't take his fist and drive it into Zimmerman's face do you?" the lawyer pressed.

"No sir," Jeantel replied.

Renowned forensics expert Vincent Di Maio may have been one of Zimmerman's strongest witnesses. He told the jury that the pattern of powder burns and other forensic evidence on Martin's body indicated that the teenager's sweatshirt was two to four inches away from his body at the time he was shot, meaning that Martin was leaning forward over Zimmerman when he was killed.

"The medical evidence is consistent with his [Zimmerman's] statement," Di Maio told the Florida court.

The words of Trayvon Martin's father were also used to undermine the prosecution's case. A key battle in the trial was over who was heard screaming for help in the background of a 911 call before the fatal shot was fired. Martin's family insisted the voice was their son's voice, while Zimmerman's parents told the court it was Zimmerman screaming.

Serino testified that when Martin's father, Tracy Martin, first heard the tape he said it was not Trayvon. "He looked away and under his breath said, 'No,'" Serino told the court.

A second police officer gave a similar description of Tracy Martin's reaction to the tape.
 

Carp

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He didn't have to identify himself. The primary thing to remember about this case is at what point did it become a crime. The facts that were accepted by the jury was that a crime was committed when Martin threw a punch and the subsequent events that ensued. That is what the case is about and all other dialogue is preferential bantering.
It was reported that Martin ran...Zimmerman said that to the police. Seems like he might have been scared by being followed by someone suspicious in a vehicle. Maybe he identifies himself and what he is doing and nothing more comes of it...or better yet, he does not follow Martin as he was instructed.
 

BipolarFuk

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Perception: Trayvon Martin was a skinny
little "kid". TRUTH: Trayvon was tone 5'11"
college-ready young adult.

Perception: Trayvon was scared of "the
creepy cracker". TRUTH: Trayvon approached Zimmerman's truck.

Perception: George Zimmerman was a
racist. TRUTH: Zimmerman mentored black kids, had black friends, and
did not utter any racial slurs. He was concerned for all of his
hard-working neighbors regardless of race.

Perception: Trayvon Martin was innocent
"kid". TRUTH: He was drug using thief that was kicked out
of school for fighting. His own mom kicked him out of her home. He
enjoyed and joked about fighting and was attempting to buy an illegal
gun.

Perception: George Zimmerman disobeyed
non-emergency dispatcher (some believe 911/police). TRUTH: After
dispatcher said "We don't need you to do that (chasing Martin)
sir" ..Zimmerman stopped running and calmly spoke with
dispatcher for about one minute and forty-five seconds. He listened
to the dispatchers recommendation to stop his pursuit of Martin.

Perception: George Z chased, pursued,
and sought down Martin with a gun to kill him. TRUTH: George
Zimmerman got out of his car and ran after Trayvon for about 12
seconds. Stopped his pursuit after 12 seconds. Never catching up to
Martin and never taking out his gun.

Perception: Martin ran away from
Zimmerman straight to the house he was staying at with his dad.
TRUTH: Had Martin ran straight to that home, he would have made it
there in under 30 seconds. It was 4 minutes that passed from the time
Martin started running to the first 911 calls. Martin was
approximately 10-15 feet away from the original starting point ... 4
minutes after he started to run.

Perception: Trayvon had Skittles and a
Watermelon Juice and was going home doing nothing wrong/suspicious.
TRUTH: Trayvon was walking through peoples back yards and looking
through sliding glass windows. This is a commonly known activity of
thieves ..called "casing" ...see who is not home, who makes
the easy target. Zimmerman had profiled Martin's activity "walking
around" with no specific direction, "looking around at
houses", and "he is wearing a hoodie" ... Zimmerman
profiled a thief ..NOT because of race ..but because of Trayvon's
activity.
 

Carp

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I've never seen anything where he was casing houses. That is conjecture or fiction. He was suspended from school...for non-violent offenses. I smoked pot in high school too, big deal.
 

NoDak

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Perception: Martin ran away from
Zimmerman straight to the house he was staying at with his dad.
TRUTH: Had Martin ran straight to that home, he would have made it
there in under 30 seconds. It was 4 minutes that passed from the time
Martin started running to the first 911 calls. Martin was
approximately 10-15 feet away from the original starting point ... 4
minutes after he started to run.
That's the biggest thing that stinks for me. If Martin was so scared, why not run home? He had lost Zimmerman. Why circle back or wait for him? Speaking only for myself, if I was scared of something, I'd do my damndest to get away from whatever it was.
 

boozeman

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I've never seen anything where he was casing houses. That is conjecture or fiction. He was suspended from school...for non-violent offenses. I smoked pot in high school too, big deal.
I don't think he was a hardcore thug, just a normal delinquent. From his Twitter handle and so on...umm, hardly an innocent "child".
 

Carp

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I don't think he was a hardcore thug, just a normal delinquent. From his Twitter handle and so on...umm, hardly an innocent "child".
No, he was not innocent, but then neither was Zimmerman. He was arrrested for resisting arrest with violence and had a restraining order against him from alleged domestic violence. He was no angel.
 

boozeman

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The biggest problem I have with the case is why does Trayvon get no self defense remedies.

If somebody follows you in a car and then gets out of the car to run after you or at least walk briskly and start asking me questions I have a right to defend myself.

I know none of us knows what really occurred, but I was surprised this was never brought up by the prosecution.
That was another mistake. They tried too hard to prove Zimmerman was the physical instigator, which there was little to suggest that he firmly was.

Nothing prevented Martin from flipping him off and running home. He probably got pissed off, got in the creepy ass cracker's face and it escalated quickly.
 

boozeman

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No, he was not innocent, but then neither was Zimmerman. He was arrrested for resisting arrest with violence and had a restraining order against him from alleged domestic violence. He was no angel.
Zimmerman was also a cop wannabe that frankly should have listened to the police. That still doesn't mean he was guilty any more than Martin's gangsta style made him a criminal. The facts are what people aren't paying attention to. The evidence wasn't enough to support the murder charge the prosecution was being so hellbent on achieving.
 

L.T. Fan

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It was reported that Martin ran...Zimmerman said that to the police. Seems like he might have been scared by being followed by someone suspicious in a vehicle. Maybe he identifies himself and what he is doing and nothing more comes of it...or better yet, he does not follow Martin as he was instructed.
maybe so but there is no crime that has occurred in all that.
 

L.T. Fan

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There was no crime committed either to warrant him being followed by Zimmerman.
Carp. The courts only deal with the issues that have been deemed to be a crime. You position may be perfectly perfectly placed in a discussion of proper social and morality standards but they simply are not part of the legal determinations.
 
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