E_D_Guapo
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- Apr 7, 2013
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Yeah, but odds are you're getting the death penalty or life in prison instead.Then it should be within your rights to shoot them.
Yeah, but odds are you're getting the death penalty or life in prison instead.Then it should be within your rights to shoot them.
I said should.Yeah, but odds are you're getting the death penalty or life in prison instead.
Yes. Should. And that's what makes so many people so angry. Cop kills someone because he felt threatened? Meh. No real punishment. Every day somewhere in this country cops brutalize someone, yet if the person being beat down by the cops would be in deep, deep shit if he killed the cop to save himself. Hypocrisy. I understand they're "the long arm of the law" but for fuck's sake it's very easy to understand why the double standard upsets people.I said should.
That's great and all, but I was only commenting on your question. There is a shit ton of stuff about this country that is flawed. I understand the angst. I have my fair share about a lot of other stuff. What cops do is pretty far down the list.Yes. Should. And that's what makes so many people so angry. Cop kills someone because he felt threatened? Meh. No real punishment. Every day somewhere in this country cops brutalize someone, yet if the person being beat down by the cops would be in deep, deep shit if he killed the cop to save himself. Hypocrisy. I understand they're "the long arm of the law" but for fuck's sake it's very easy to understand why the double standard upsets people.
Naturally it is because you see it as a problem that doesn't really affect you. That isn't a shot at you at all, it's just the truth.That's great and all, but I was only commenting on your question. There is a shit ton of stuff about this country that is flawed. I understand the angst. I have my fair share about a lot of other stuff. What cops do is pretty far down the list.
Maybe. Saw a stat the other day that showed that in the last 5 years twice as many white people have been killed by a cop with a gun than black people. Take from that what you will, but I found it interesting.Naturally it is because you see it as a problem that doesn't really affect you. That isn't a shot at you at all, it's just the truth.
1st of all don't tell what kind of understanding I have, I worked for 3 years as a juvenille probation officer so I have a great knowledge of what police do.It truly amazes me that no matter the circumstance you will have people who want to place blame on the officer in this circumstance. I can tell you that yes, we get out of our cars and confront people all the time when we give them a command to quit violating the law and they don't. How about if Brown had just gotten out of the street like his compadre that didn't get shot, instead of being a thug and confronting and then attacking the officer, maybe then he wouldn't be dead. Jiggs, I'm telling you dude, you have a way deluded mindset at what officers do and face day in and day out. You need to take the time and spend a few weekends riding in with officers where you live. Maybe after a few of those ride ins and getting to know what officers deal with day in and out, and how well officers handle harsh situations, you'll have a little better understanding how easily something like this shooting can happen. You sit here and proselytize like the Sharptons of the world as if Brown didn't have any part in getting himself shot. "The officer could have done this or that, he shouldn't have gotten out of the car!" (done his job) I'm telling you it isn't always possible. Yes, if he had a taser he should have been carrying it, but I have one and I'm telling you if someone attacked me and went for my gun, I'm not reaching for the taser. It's called the force continuum and you don't have to go in a line from one level to the next. Trying to take an officers gun implies you intend to shoot him with it, therefore if you persist or re-engage, you will likely get shot.
Some people are saying the DA chose a GJ of mostly white folk to get the officer off, but the GJ was seated a few months before the shooting. The evidence they saw made them believe the officer was justified in the shooting. I have heard from attorneys that looked at the evidence that said had this not been a media circus, this would never even have gone to grand jury.
And yet, the great leaders of the black movements are crying foul and talking about vengeance and tearing this country down because of Michael Brown. Holy crap dude, way for people to select martyrs and a great group of folk for a people or race to listen to as leaders.
Did you see the video?[MENTION=49]fortsbest[/MENTION] a few co-workers and I pretty much pointed out the same stuff that you mentioned. We were talking about the case where the cops shot the 12 year old kid who had the BB gun in particular.
There's video out there showing the kid flashing this BB gun which absolutely looks real, especially if you don't examine it closely. Plus when you factor in all the shootings kids his age are involved in on seemingly a daily basis, how can you not assume that the gun is real.
I also agree with your point about people who aren't on the frontlines foolishly assuming that deescalating a situation is easy and routine. It's easy to think that stuff when you're sitting comfortably on your sofa and not on the frontline having to make split second life or death situations.
I say this with experience as I've been in that situation a few times during my deployments to the middle east.
I remember after one of the Koran burning incidents in Afghanistan a few years ago, Afghans were highly pissed off and wanted American blood spilled for the incident. The General in charge of US Forces, who was safely tucked away in his fortified base camp with dozens of security personnel and equipment surrounding him, spews some nonsense about how we should continue to work, business as usual and engage the Afghans in dialog. Dialog? Pfft. Afghans weren't interested in dialog. They wanted blood. They were throwing huge rocks at Soldiers guarding the gates, hurling fire bombs, etc. But the guy who's safely tucked away not on the front line thinks a passive approach is best. Go figure. I bring this up as a prime example of how a number of people who aren't personally in the line of fire, seem to always have "great ideas" of how a situation should have played out peacefully.
This is a point that I made as well and it's one of my biggest issues with the thuggish violence that's going on. I have no problem with the peaceful protestors but no way in hell am I getting worked up to the point to where I want to riot and tear things up over Michael Brown. Especially when it's been established that he's a bit of a thug and probably escalated the situation by going after the officer's gun. Also, I guarantee that prior to the shooting 99% of the protestors couldn't pick Michael Brown out of 2-man police lineup.....but his death has somehow stirred up enough emotion in them to where they feel the need to burn down their own city? Okay, to each their own.
Again, I have no problem with those that disagree with the decision not to indict but how about we ratchet down the "burn the city down" rage. Save that rage for an African American who's actually worth martyring.
"Deeply troubling to us was that some of the specially trained investigators who are charged with conducting unbiased reviews of officers' use of deadly force admitted to us that they conduct their investigations with the goal of casting the accused officer in the most positive light possible," the Justice Department's report said.
I know very little about that case, but from what I know I sympathize with the cop.As for the NY cope that killed Garner with the choke hold, I know the grand jury voted not to indict but you have to think the family has a very strong civil case that they can probably win against the city and the officer that put Garner in the choke hold.
Obviously I'm no attorney but a wrongful death civil suit seems like a no-brainer. Especially since the cop used an illegal choke hold.
I admire that you had a job working with the probation system for three years, and you likely have a general understanding about what police do, but it isn't the same as actually experiencing what we deal with and how we deal with it. It provides you basic appreciation, just like I have very little knowledge of what your job would have been like. I have a general knowledge of Clay's job but no clue what is really like and as I have said before, I'd much rather do my job than his just based on what I know he has to deal with.1st of all don't tell what kind of understanding I have, I worked for 3 years as a juvenille probation officer so I have a great knowledge of what police do.
I bring your name up because you are almost always the first one to post something about how the police did wrong and someone should have been tried or gone to jail anytime there is an issue with law enforcement vs someone black. You have in the past asked me what I thought about a police involved (or non police as with Trayvon Martin) incident before all the facts were known. PLUS, I like you so I enjoy intelligent back and forth on topics. But conversation goes nowhere when the facts don't matter and blind dedication to a premise on one side or other is involved.2nd of all why bring my name up, I am not the only one who has had issues with this officer and how he handled the resolution of this incident.
In terms of the GJ remark I said some people, that was not specifically directed at you. Sorry if you took it that way.I have not once said anything about the grand jury in this case so why are you projecting this bullshit at me?
I honestly have not heard or read about the shooting of the 12 year old, until this came up but I will look to see what I can find on it.Now tell me why the officers in Cleveland were right in shooting the 12 year old since cops can do no wrong in your mind.
"Officers get into fights all the time without discharging weapons", do they? Every cop I have every spoken to was very clear that they would prefer to murder someone rather than fight. The have a disturbing trend of saying "I am going home to my family".
Personally I doubt he would shoot the cop, beat badly and hospitalize, yea. People don't just kill cops for jollys, they tend to take a dim view of that and the consequences are not worth it.
If all this is true, the city is going to get their tails handed to them in a suit for negligent hiring! This dude should never have been an officer in the first place and it's a tragedy of epic proportion regardless the color of the kid.Cleveland cop who shot 12-year-old slammed for 'immaturity' in past job
By Catherine E. Shoichet, CNN
updated 9:02 PM EST, Thu December 4, 2014
Cleveland Police say they never saw the personnel file that detailed criticism
(CNN) -- Nearly two years before he shot and killed a 12-year-old who had an air gun, Cleveland Police Officer Timothy Loehmann resigned from another police job after a supervisor described him as "distracted and weepy" and "emotionally immature."
Records from the Independence Police Department obtained by CNN include comments from a supervisor detailing what they called "a pattern of lack of maturity, indiscretion and not following instructions," a "dangerous loss of composure during live range training" and an "inability to manage personal stress."
"I do not believe time, nor training, will be able to change or correct these deficiencies," Independence Deputy Chief Jim Polak wrote in a November 2012 memo.
DOJ report: Cleveland police 'reckless'
Now Loehmann, who could not be immediately reached for comment, is one of two Cleveland police officers under investigation after the fatal shooting of 12-year-old Tamir Rice last month. Police have said the boy was shot after pulling out an air gun that looked like a real firearm.
Video shows police shooting of a boy 12-year-old killed by cops over air gun Cops: We'll release video of shooting
Loehmann joined the Cleveland Police Department in March. A Cleveland Police spokesman said Thursday that during a background check before hiring Loehmann, his department didn't review the officer's personnel file from Independence, a suburb south of the city. Detectives did speak with the Independence human resources director, the spokesman said.
"During that interview detectives inquired if there were any disciplinary actions or incidents that Cleveland Police should be aware of prior to hiring Loehmann, at which point they were told there were none," Sgt. Ali Pillow said. "The reason for departure indicated was resignation. Officer Loehmann indicated that he resigned for personal reasons, which was substantiated by the City of Independence."
According to the records, Loehmann worked at the Independence Police Department as an officer until December 2012, when he submitted his resignation "for personal reasons" after he was told that a disciplinary process of separation had begun.
"Ptl. Loehmann's inability to perform basic functions as instructed, and his inability to emotionally function because of a personal situation at home with an on and off again girlfriend leads one to believe that he would not be able to substantially cope, or make good decisions, during or resulting from any other stressful situation," Polok wrote.
Another memo from a sergeant who worked with Loehmann at a shooting range described the officer as "distracted," "not fit to return" after an emotional outburst and someone who was "not following simple instructions."
An Independence spokeswoman said in a statement that the city had made all personnel files for Loehmann available.
Loehmann has been on paid injured leave since November 22 after injuring his ankle in the shooting, Pillow said. His partner is also on paid administrative leave
The shooting has sparked criticism from community members who accuse police of unnecessary violence.
Police said it's not clear if the responding officers involved in the shooting received information about the age of the suspect or the gun being "probably fake."
Fred Loehmann, Timothy Loehmann's father, told the Cleveland Plain Dealer this week that his son didn't know the boy's gun was fake or realize he was 12 years old.
"I was right there and he went for the gun," he recalled his son saying, according to the newspaper. "I had no choice."
Efforts by CNN to reach Loehmann Thursday were not immediately successful.
True, but the circumstance is the same in the sense of the situation he described. And in some cities I have been told by officers that work in them, they are battle zones. Not as much as maybe in the 70 and 80's but still. Cops get shot at alot in major cities that you never here about because there it is common place. BUt the armchair quarterbacking (see what I did there?) is still the same thing.A deployment to the Middle East should not be treated the same as a walk through an American city. Their is something fucked up in that equivilence.
[MENTION=49]fortsbest[/MENTION] a few co-workers and I pretty much pointed out the same stuff that you mentioned. We were talking about the case where the cops shot the 12 year old kid who had the BB gun in particular.
There's video out there showing the kid flashing this BB gun which absolutely looks real, especially if you don't examine it closely. Plus when you factor in all the shootings kids his age are involved in on seemingly a daily basis, how can you not assume that the gun is real.
I also agree with your point about people who aren't on the frontlines foolishly assuming that deescalating a situation is easy and routine. It's easy to think that stuff when you're sitting comfortably on your sofa and not on the frontline having to make split second life or death situations.
I say this with experience as I've been in that situation a few times during my deployments to the middle east.
I remember after one of the Koran burning incidents in Afghanistan a few years ago, Afghans were highly pissed off and wanted American blood spilled for the incident. The General in charge of US Forces, who was safely tucked away in his fortified base camp with dozens of security personnel and equipment surrounding him, spews some nonsense about how we should continue to work, business as usual and engage the Afghans in dialog. Dialog? Pfft. Afghans weren't interested in dialog. They wanted blood. They were throwing huge rocks at Soldiers guarding the gates, hurling fire bombs, etc. But the guy who's safely tucked away not on the front line thinks a passive approach is best. Go figure. I bring this up as a prime example of how a number of people who aren't personally in the line of fire, seem to always have "great ideas" of how a situation should have played out peacefully.
This is a point that I made as well and it's one of my biggest issues with the thuggish violence that's going on. I have no problem with the peaceful protestors but no way in hell am I getting worked up to the point to where I want to riot and tear things up over Michael Brown. Especially when it's been established that he's a bit of a thug and probably escalated the situation by going after the officer's gun. Also, I guarantee that prior to the shooting 99% of the protestors couldn't pick Michael Brown out of 2-man police lineup.....but his death has somehow stirred up enough emotion in them to where they feel the need to burn down their own city? Okay, to each their own.
Thanks for the service Big, I appreciate you. My Dad was Air Force for 24 years and my brother Army for 6, but I got married young and chose police work instead (mainly because my corrected vision wouldn't let me fly back then dangit!)Again, I have no problem with those that disagree with the decision not to indict but how about we ratchet down the "burn the city down" rage. Save that rage for an African American who's actually worth martyring.
So my prayer is that we don't have to worry about martyrs in the future and that people can actually come to some common sense solutions about proper police work when it's appropriate, and working to solve the problems that actually proliferate the Michael Browns of the world. I mean the life choices that led up to the shooting) We can talk about police dealings with minorities all we want, but the fact is problems in minority communities, especially the black community (unwed mothers, teen pregnancy, poor education, abortion used as contraception, education or lack thereof, gangs and gang violence, blacks killing blacks and such a horrific rate, just to name a few) cause much of what leads to teens like Michael Brown and there circumstance. people with financial stroke need to stand up and admit these are issues and actually do something toward helping. Government can only do so much and BS efforts for political gain like My Brothers Keeper do little. It has to come from the local front and be a sustained effort so you can get minority by in as well or it dies as quicker than it can happen. The thing is, you won't find the Sharptons or Jacksons of the world or the preachers talking about tearing the country down pushing or aiding in things like this because it doesn't promote them or their divisive message. Short rambling rant, I apologize.
I admire that you had a job working with the probation system for three years, and you likely have a general understanding about what police do, but it isn't the same as actually experiencing what we deal with and how we deal with it. It provides you basic appreciation, just like I have very little knowledge of what your job would have been like. I have a general knowledge of Clay's job but no clue what is really like and as I have said before, I'd much rather do my job than his just based on what I know he has to deal with.
I bring your name up because you are almost always the first one to post something about how the police did wrong and someone should have been tried or gone to jail anytime there is an issue with law enforcement vs someone black. You have in the past asked me what I thought about a police involved (or non police as with Trayvon Martin) incident before all the facts were known. PLUS, I like you so I enjoy intelligent back and forth on topics. But conversation goes nowhere when the facts don't matter and blind dedication to a premise on one side or other is involved.
In terms of the GJ remark I said some people, that was not specifically directed at you. Sorry if you took it that way.
I honestly have not heard or read about the shooting of the 12 year old, until this came up but I will look to see what I can find on it.
Keep in mind I am not blindly devoted to all police officers. Refresh your memory on conversations past when I have said I am all about good police work and there are bad police officers and people who shouldn't be police. But I do believe in the profession of policing and that it is our earnest attempt to make it better and get along with everyone we can. Research the Fort Worth PD sir and you will find we have one of if not the best community policing program in the country. We work with our neighborhoods to help them turn their areas around and into habitable places to live. When I speak of people of all colors etc getting along, I have been part of it for 23 years. On the occasions where we have had to shoot anyone regardless the color, our department handles their business correctly and we keep the communities informed so we don't have incidents like Ferguson.
While the shooting in Ferguson may have been justified, the department and those involved did not handle their business correctly IMHO. Part of that may be because they don't have the relationship with their community they should. That is on police leadership.
But all the protests over the shooting itself are ridiculous in the sense that Michael Brown should not become a martyr for people because he may well have deserved getting shot. The anarchist type folk who riot loot and pillage in situations like this are criminals not just people venting and legitimately protesting something they feel is wrong. The people who are marching in streets shouting "hands up, don't shoot!" are idiots in the sense they have no clue what they are protesting because their whole premise is base on a lie.
They family has a good argument in that I too personally believe all officers should have cameras on them, we've had that discussion here before as well. But even if Wilson did have one and it showed exactly what was described you would still have people doing the same thing.
Lastly for now, and I'm sorry I went so long on this, The only solution for communities like Ferguson is for the PD and communities to get together and try to become partners in making their town a better place to live. Community leaders have to try to quell the anger instead of fomenting it. Police there have to be inclusive of the community and get them to help with the issues that cause the Michael Browns of the world to exist. And from what I have heard about their PD they need to start being more representative of the community they serve. There's a ton more they need to do, but that's a start. Much love for you my brother. BTW I'll look that the shooting of the 12 year old, but you won't see much of an opinion until all the facts are there for me to look at.
See Forts you have totally made up a assumption about me that is not supported by the facts if you actually read what I have posted in this thread or any other police threads.I bring your name up because you are almost always the first one to post something about how the police did wrong and someone should have been tried or gone to jail anytime there is an issue with law enforcement vs someone black. You have in the past asked me what I thought about a police involved (or non police as with Trayvon Martin) incident before all the facts were known. PLUS, I like you so I enjoy intelligent back and forth on topics. But conversation goes nowhere when the facts don't matter and blind dedication to a premise on one side or other is involved.