The Gun Control Debate Thread

[L.T. Fan]

Care to reveal what the solution was that has now changed to something else and what that might be.

 

[Cotton]

can we at least agree that guns are indeed a problem in this country?

Absolutely fucking not. We can agree that this country has not addressed mental illness in this country, though. We can agree on that. Guns are not the damn issue. The stipulations to get a gun has not changed in 50 years. So, what else has changed? Let me repeat, the stipulations to be able to get a gun has not changed in 50 years, so what has? It's not the gun buying process, obviously.

I'll answer for you. Our inability to address mental health is the issue. And, spare me any sort of rhetoric you have heard on the news. I am tired of hearing that shit. Both sides have shrunk into a partisan corner on this issue and refuse to actually try to fix this issue. I don't give one good god damn how you feel about guns, but they aren't the issue. The people pulling the trigger are. Gun free zones don't stop shootings. "High capacity" magazine bans don't stop mass shootings. So, what do you propose? If you propose banning any guns at all, then fuck you. I am dead serious about this. You propose to ban one single gun currently legal in the US then fuck you. I know this comes across harsh, but I couldn't care less. Every time there is a shooting both sides rush to defend their side of the gun debate instead of taking on the real issue. They are so wanton to be right that they don't get a god damn thing solved. I'm sick of it. Step the fuck across the partisan lines and finally address mental illness in this country. Or shut the fuck up. I'm done. Fix it and stop trying to be "right".

 

[jsmith6919]

The solution is simple according to our betters. By opening the borders, repeal the 2nd and having a mandatory recall of all firearms, allow women to kill their children up until 18, slavery reparations, mandatory sex changes, free college, universal basic income, and tax every middle class citizen and up 100% of their assets. Then and only then can this be resolved.

 

[Rev]

It is actually pretty easy to identify the cause.

Lower class whites have always had someone they can feel better than and since that gap appears to be lessening, they feel that pressure.

Now the solution is something totally different.

I think its more than just lower class whites.

 

[jsmith6919]

 

[jsmith6919]

 

[Texas Ace]

Absolutely fucking not. We can agree that this country has not addressed mental illness in this country, though. We can agree on that. Guns are not the damn issue. The stipulations to get a gun has not changed in 50 years. So, what else has changed? Let me repeat, the stipulations to be able to get a gun has not changed in 50 years, so what has? It's not the gun buying process, obviously.

I'll answer for you. Our inability to address mental health is the issue. And, spare me any sort of rhetoric you have heard on the news. I am tired of hearing that shit. Both sides have shrunk into a partisan corner on this issue and refuse to actually try to fix this issue. I don't give one good god damn how you feel about guns, but they aren't the issue. The people pulling the trigger are. Gun free zones don't stop shootings. "High capacity" magazine bans don't stop mass shootings. So, what do you propose? If you propose banning any guns at all, then fuck you. I am dead serious about this. You propose to ban one single gun currently legal in the US then fuck you. I know this comes across harsh, but I couldn't care less. Every time there is a shooting both sides rush to defend their side of the gun debate instead of taking on the real issue. They are so wanton to be right that they don't get a god damn thing solved. I'm sick of it. Step the fuck across the partisan lines and finally address mental illness in this country. Or shut the fuck up. I'm done. Fix it and stop trying to be "right".

So we're just going to ignore that other countries play the same video games and have the same mental illnesses that our citizens do but not ANYWHERE NEAR the amount of mass killings in public places?

Are you really going to be that obtuse and tell me that we don't have a gun problem in this country?

This right here is a perfect example of why we can't put logical measures in place. People like you refuse to budge even a little despite all the evidence to support that there is in fact a gun problem in this country.

 

[bbgun]

Are you really going to be that obtuse and tell me that we don't have a gun problem in this country?

Guns were plentiful in the 1950s and much easier to get than they are today (no waiting periods), yet no one was shooting up schools, Macy'’s or the workplace. So no, it'’s not guns. There'’s something insidious in the culture.

 

[jsmith6919]

People like you refuse to budge even a little despite all the evidence to support that there is in fact a gun problem in this country.

Budge how? The current universal background check proposal wouldn't have stopped any of these attacks. All it does is make me a felon if I loan my son-inlaw a gun when we're hunting

 

[jsmith6919]

 

[Cotton]

So we're just going to ignore that other countries play the same video games and have the same mental illnesses that our citizens do but not ANYWHERE NEAR the amount of mass killings in public places?

Are you really going to be that obtuse and tell me that we don't have a gun problem in this country?

This right here is a perfect example of why we can't put logical measures in place. People like you refuse to budge even a little despite all the evidence to support that there is in fact a gun problem in this country.

Video games are not the problem. Mental illness is. And no, other cultures do not ignore mental illness like this country does. Sure, all countries have mental issue problems but the difference is in how the culture treats it. Here we just ignore it and hope it goes away and doesn’t do too much damage. It’s ridiculous.

 

[Texas Ace]

Guns were plentiful in the 1950s and much easier to get than they are today (no waiting periods), yet no one was shooting up schools, Macy'’s or the workplace. So no, it'’s not guns. There'’s something insidious in the culture.

I agree with that, but guns being so readily available here makes it easier for those individuals to act on those negative impulses that could be and probably are influenced by toxic cultures.

It's like a person with a drinking problem. If you know you have a guy who refuses to let someone take them home no matter how much they drink, are you going to hand him the keys to do so? He may find his way behind the wheel anyway, but that doesn't mean you don't at least TRY to make it harder for him.

And that's the point here -- as a nation we have to stop using this excuse of "Well, it would have happened anyway because...." as a means to not make any changes to our gun laws and regulations.

And again, if it's just a cultural thing or an issue of negative and toxic influences and ideologies, then why is the USA by far and away the nation with the most public shooting incidents of this type?

We have to acknowledge that our gun culture plays a part in this. How can that be denied at this point?

I don't understand it.

 

[Cotton]

I agree with that, but guns being so readily available here makes it easier for those individuals to act on those negative impulses that could be and probably are influenced by toxic cultures.

It's like a person with a drinking problem. If you know you have a guy who refuses to let someone take them home no matter how much they drink, are you going to hand him the keys to do so? Hey may find his way behind the wheel anyway, but that doesn't mean you don't at least TRY to make it harder for him.

And again, if it's just a cultural thing or an issue of negative and toxic influences and ideologies, then why is the USA by far and away the nation with the most public shooting incidents of this type?

We have to acknowledge that our gun culture plays a part in this. How can that be denied at this point?

I don't understand it.

So, you would take away my right to defend myself from the same people who are causing this debate?

 

[Texas Ace]

So, you would take away my right to defend myself from the same people who are causing this debate?

There it goes....the "you're taking away my rights!" argument.

Look, just so that we're clear and no one starts to accuse me of being a bleeding heart liberal, I actually vote republican more than anything else.

In my adult life, I have only voted for 1 Democratic president and all the rest were republicans.

My point is, I want this to be clear that I am coming from as an objective point of view as possible.

When gun owners start screaming about that taking away their rights, are you guys actually LISTENING or are you just jumping to extremes? Because for all the shit Obama took for his views on guns, the guy NEVER said he wanted to get rid of them completely or even suggested doing away with the 2nd amendment.

His stance was always one of "We need to put more measures in place".

And yet there were all the gun nuts crying up a storm about "taking my rights away". And this is a perfect example of what I said in my original post:

"Why can't we both be allowed to own guns but also acknowledge that the ease in which these weapons can be obtained is a problem?

Why does it have to be one extreme or the other?"

And this is what I meant. Nobody is saying that all guns need to be removed and citizens shouldn't be allowed to protect their homes or own a gun.

So where exactly are you getting this from?

 

[Smitty]

I'll trade "measures" for a Heller decision on AR's, ie, that they are constitutionally protected, just like handguns are.

Then we can talk about measures. But just like everything else, those measures are then subject to the Constitution and it's protections.

And if Democrats are so desperate to try any measure to stop this -- if they really mean that "we have to do SOMETHING" -- then how come the something is always their something?

Propose funding for arming schools and see how quickly they say "But that will disrupt the learning environment! Can't do that!" Well, getting shot also disrupts the learning environment, isn't that what they keep telling us?

Republicans have ideas that could be tried. But the left isn't willing to assent to any of those ideas, because they don't really want to prevent shootings. They want to trade on shootings to accomplish their political aims of restricting and probably eventually removing legal gun ownership.

 

[bbgun]

I agree with that, but guns being so readily available here makes it easier for those individuals to act on those negative impulses that could be and probably are influenced by toxic cultures.

Guns have always been readily available in this country, but mass shootings are a relatively recent phenomenon. The Va Tech shooter did a shitload of damage just with handguns (33 dead). Ditto the Va Beach shooter last May (13 dead). People in the 1950’s could have inflicted similar damage with the weapons of that era but chose not to. NPR: AR-15-style rifles were around for more than 40 years before one was used in a mass killing, at an apartment in Crandon, Wis., in 2007. The shooter killed six people and then took his own life.

If you ask me, something happened in the 1980s with the Luby's shooting, the McDonald's shooting in San Diego, and the sporadic post office shootings. That's when the tide turned.

 

[Texas Ace]

Guns have always been readily available in this country, but mass shootings are a relatively recent phenomenon. The Va Tech shooter did a shitload of damage just with handguns (33 dead). Ditto the Va Beach shooter last May (13 dead). People in the 1950’s could have inflicted similar damage with the weapons of that era but chose not to. NPR: AR-15-style rifles were around for more than 40 years before one was used in a mass killing, at an apartment in Crandon, Wis., in 2007. The shooter killed six people and then took his own life.

If you ask me, something happened in the 1980s with the Luby's shooting, the McDonald's shooting in San Diego, and the sporadic post office shootings. That's when the tide turned.

And I agree with you, but the point remains -- this is a prevalent issue here in America whereas it isn't anywhere near the problem in other first world countries that is here.

Logic suggests that there is something here in this country that is enabling these acts to occur at a rate that is far far far greater than anywhere else in the world.

As I said before, it could be a culture thing, an influence thing, a radicalism thing......whatever. But what doesn't help is allowing a human being who is poisoned by any of those things to have the means to so easily access the types of weapons that are made available in this country.

I'm all for having weapons to protect your home, but why on earth does a civilian NEED to have the right to buy an assault rifle? There is no logical reason for that.

If you're a gun enthusiast, then that's fine. Make it to where only gun ranges can own these weapons. If you want to go shoot a wide selection of guns, you can go to the gun range to do so, but we're not gonna let you, Joe Schmoe, purchase one.

Why are so many people against such a logical and fair measure like that?

Because you can't protect your family?

GTFO.

If you need an assault rifle to protect your home, then you either live in an awful place or you've gotten mixed up in something you shouldn't have.

I can't recall a single instance in my lifetime where a middle class civilian living in suburbia said "Thank God I had my AR-15 or I wouldn't have been able to kill all 6 of those random thieves who tried to steal my wife's jewerly".

Come on, dude.

We've got to stop going to extremes and ignoring the obvious just because we don't wanna budge on certain issues. This shit is happening far too often to the point it's becoming a regular thing in this country.

We need to be looking under every rock for a solution that works for everyone.

NOTHING should be disregarded at this point.

That's all I'm saying.

 

[jsmith6919]

1

 

[boozeman]

I guess it might be best to avoid Wal-Mart.

 

[Smitty]

I'm all for having weapons to protect your home, but why on earth does a civilian NEED to have the right to buy an assault rifle? There is no logical reason for that.

Not to be insulting, but I'm not sure you are educated on this matter.

Primarily, there is no such thing as an assault rifle.

There are full automatic rifles (which are already banned and have been since the '30s), and semi automatic rifles (which are legal and have been since a 10 year period in the late 90's-early 2000's in which some of them were also banned). Many hunting rifles are semi automatic.

Semi automatic rifles, despite many that are designed to look scary, are functionally not much different from semi-automatic handguns, which is why semi automatic handguns have inflicted just as much damage in rampages where they are used.

They do no fire faster. They do not shoot bullets which are particularly more dangerous. They have magazine capacities that are above 10.

Why are so many people against such a logical and fair measure like that?

Because you can't protect your family?

GTFO.

If you need an assault rifle to protect your home, then you either live in an awful place or you've gotten mixed up in something you shouldn't have.

I can't recall a single instance in my lifetime where a middle class civilian living in suburbia said "Thank God I had my AR-15 or I wouldn't have been able to kill all 6 of those random thieves who tried to steal my wife's jewerly".

Then you are not informed of current events.

Home break ins frequently occur where it's 3, 4, 5, or more home invaders.

And speaking of "come on, dude," -- come on, dude. Someone is breaking into your house, you do not know and do not care if they are there to steal your jewelry, or your life.

And you would not want to find out.

We've got to stop going to extremes and ignoring the obvious just because we don't wanna budge on certain issues. This shit is happening far too often to the point it's becoming a regular thing in this country.

People are willing to budge. But the budging will simply not be "ban AR 15s."

You have not really demonstrated that you have any real idea why banning them would be beneficial, frankly. I mean, "come on, dude," -- the Columbine massacre happened at the height of the "Assault Weapons Ban," of the 1990s and was conducted with handguns and a shotgun.

Additionally, statistics show that vast, vast majority of "mass shootings," are committed with handguns, not rifles.

So please explain again how your plea is anything but an emotional response to an atrocity and not a logical one?

We need to be looking under every rock for a solution that works for everyone.

NOTHING should be disregarded at this point.

That's all I'm saying.

Ok.

Cut back social programs and use the savings to station armed guards in public places.

Private places, like stores, should also start hiring armed security and marketing it as a feature for why I should shop there.

Done.

Your move.