Realistically, how good can this defense be?

[ZeroClub]

Here's someone's (https://athlonsports.com/nfl/10-greatest-defenses-nfl-history) list of the top 10 NFL defenses of the past 60 years:

1. 1985 Chicago Bears
2. 2000 Baltimore Ravens
3. 1976 Pittsburgh Steelers
4. 2013 Seattle Seahawks
5. 2002 Tampa Bay Buccaneers
6. 1962 Green Bay Packers
7. 1972 Miami Dolphins
8. 2008 Pittsburgh Steelers
9. 1991 Philadelphia Eagles
10. 1986 New York Giants

Obviously, we’d disagree on the order and criteria (people always disagree on that). Also, some would argue that other teams should or could be included in the top 10 (or top 20) discussion. Here’s some of those other defenses:

2015 Denver Broncos
2004 New England Patriots
2000 Tennessee Titans
1993 Dallas Cowboys
1992 New Orleans Saints
1990 New York Giants
1984 San Francisco 49ers
1978 Dallas Cowboys
1977 Atlanta Falcons
1977 Denver Broncos
1975 Los Angeles Rams
1973 Oakland Raiders
1971 Minnesota Vikings
1969 Kansas City Chiefs
1968 Baltimore Colts
1966 Green Bay Packers

Question 1: Is it realistic to think that the 2023 Cowboys defense could be good enough to be considered among the above listed 26 teams?

Question 2: If so, how high?

 

[boozeman]

According to @Simpleton, we are gonna be top tier. Like Ravens good and shit.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Yeah, threads like this make me kind of nervous.

I mean, last year they weren't even the best in the league, so I don't know about all-time. A few Injuries or other bad breaks and they could easily disappoint us, while still being very good.

I just hope they stay more or less where they were last year, which is more than good enough. DVOA had them as the #2 defense (behind the Niners). What held us back was the offense being like #15.

 

[boozeman]

Yeah, threads like this make me kind of nervous.

I mean, last year they weren't even the best in the league, so I don't know about all-time. A few Injuries or other bad breaks and they could easily disappoint us, while still being very good.

I just hope they stay more or less where they were last year, which is more than good enough. DVOA had them as the #2 defense (behind the Niners). What held us back was the offense being like #15.

Threads like this don't make me nervous.

Your point about last year was spot on.

I do not have expectations beyond last season, except get tougher.

I still perceive this defense as soft and way too dependent on opportunities.

Parsons is outstanding. Diggs is very good. Lawrence is still solid against the run.

The Bad MFer defense needs a couple more bad MFers amongst the young ones like Damone Clark and the prematurely anointed Mazi Smith.

 

[Simpleton]

Not as good as the Ravens but I truly do think this defense can be in the same conversation as the early 2010's Seahawks and the 2015 Broncos.

Those Seahawks defenses ranked 1st in points allowed 4 years in a row between 2012-15, we've only finished 5th and 7th the last two years, but led the league in turnovers forced both years (first time since the 70's so it's hard to call it a fluke at this point) while the Seahawks were 6th, 1st, 21st and 7th in the league.

If healthy this defense truly has no holes, is bringing literally everybody back from a group that was already one of the best in the league with arguably the best secondary and best pass rush in the league. No worse than top 3-5 for both.

We would all love a superstar DT who is dominant against the run and pass but the Seahawks and 2015 Broncos didn't have those either.

Remember that my premise of them being comparable to those other defenses was if Williams and/or Odighizuwa makes a leap, which to me means Williams puts up 8-10 sacks or Odighizuwa puts up 6-8 sacks with 15-20 QB hits. If that doesn't happen we won't get to that level, but if it does...

 

[Simpleton]

Threads like this don't make me nervous.

Your point about last year was spot on.

I do not have expectations beyond last season, except get tougher.

I still perceive this defense as soft and way too dependent on opportunities.

Parsons is outstanding. Diggs is very good. Lawrence is still solid against the run.

The Bad MFer defense needs a couple more bad MFers amongst the young ones like Damone Clark and the prematurely anointed Mazi Smith.

I'd put Wilson in that group and potentially Gilmore and Bland, although we have to see more from Bland and how Gilmore integrates on a new team, but both could easily be there.

And again, Williams or Odighizuwa taking a leap would put them in that group also.

 

[boozeman]

Remember that my premise of them being comparable to those other defenses was if Williams and/or Odighizuwa makes a leap, which to me means Williams puts up 8-10 sacks or Odighizuwa puts up 6-8 sacks with 15-20 QB hits. If that doesn't happen we won't get to that level, but if it does...

Odighizuwa is going to be on a relatively short leash with me. Flashes are going to have to meld into consistency.

Smith is going to take the double teams and he's going to have to step up.

 

[boozeman]

I'd put Wilson in that group and potentially Gilmore and Bland, although we have to see more from Bland and how Gilmore integrates on a new team, but both could easily be there.

And again, Williams or Odighizuwa taking a leap would put them in that group also.

Gilmore is going to be a fine one year rental. Bland is going to be a great nickel.

There still needs to be another playmaker that is not in the secondary.

 

[NoDak]

Have no fear. This is the year Cox starts flexing on the league.




GO BISON!!

 

[boozeman]

Have no fear. This is the year Cox starts flexing on the league.




GO BISON!!

Say that reminds me, that little mob scene when he made those two back to back plays was kinda Rudy-ish.

 

[Simpleton]

Gilmore is going to be a fine one year rental. Bland is going to be a great nickel.

There still needs to be another playmaker that is not in the secondary.

Wilson is arguably that guy even though he's in the secondary, I don't think he's far off from being a Pro Bowl and potentially All Pro player.

5 sacks, 1 INT, 2 FF, 9 QB hits and 7 TFL is no joke and I don't think it's a flash in the pan considering he was just as good in 2020.

For comparison, Hufanga who was All Pro last year for the 49ers and had 4 INT's, 2 sacks, 2 FF's, 5 TFL and 3 QB hits.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

I have these nagging doubts about the corners. Not that they'll suck, just that they might not be as good as we think. Diggs' terrible effort in that SF game still sticks with me. I could see his money being an issue with him if it's not what he likes, and Gilmore is at that age where he could fall off at any time. But fortunately we have Daron F. Bland in the wings.

I don't see Osa getting that much better. Not that that's a problem, he's pretty good, I just don't see a big step.

LB still concerns me a little with LVE's health. Hopefully Clark has full knowledge of the defense with more reps.

On the plus side, I'd be surprised if Sam doesn't show big time talent a lot more often.

 

[Simpleton]

And in terms of "needing another playmaker beyond the secondary", that's basically what I was getting at in saying that it depends on Williams or Odighizuwa taking a leap, they would then be that "other guy".

I think it's significantly more likely that Williams ends up taking a leap but I could see it from Odighizuwa potentially also.

 

[ZeroClub]

I assume everyone here thinks that the coaching is top-tier. That's not even a question, is it?

 

[roughneck266]

I assume everyone here thinks that the coaching is top-tier. That's not even a question, is it?

I do, at least for the most part. I think what they really need is for the players at each level of the defense to hold each other accountable, and help each other out. Diggs bidness decisions will end if the other guys back there call him out on it, probably so if the coaches do it, but I think it cuts deeper when the guy that backs you up tells you he knows you shit the bed.

 

[Genghis Khan]

I think they're so far away from being a top 10 all time defense it's absurd to even discuss it.

 

[ZeroClub]

I think they're so far away from being a top 10 all time defense it's absurd to even discuss it.

The question was whether it's reasonable to think they could be among the top 26.

 

[Genghis Khan]

The question was whether it's reasonable to think they could be among the top 26.

Probably not but I think my post was more directed at what Simp has been saying.

 

[Simpleton]

I think they're so far away from being a top 10 all time defense it's absurd to even discuss it.

They've showed signs of being an all timer defense, if they make another jump this year it could very well happen, let yourself dream.

The 2015 Broncos group is just outside the top 10 and they could easily reach that level if a guy like Williams puts up near double digit sacks.

 

[boozeman]

I assume everyone here thinks that the coaching is top-tier. That's not even a question, is it?

Aside from a few minor fuckups, nobody has taken Camo Hat to school.