LOL @ the Redskins

[Texas Ace]

Don't teams pick their mascots because of how bad ass they are? Lions, Tigers, etc.? Wouldn't it be a compliment to be a team mascot in any manner? They aren't making fun of them or slurring them. They are saying, we want a badass mascot, and the Redskins, Indians, and Chiefs mascots give a nod to how badass they were/are.

Generally speaking, you're not wrong -- hence the reason why I suggested that Snyder should have reached out to the leaders from various tribes and worked with them to come to a good middle ground where they could keep the Native American theme going but do it in a way that Native Americans found honorable and tasteful.

While I think there's a big difference between using a Lion and a Seminole , I do get where you're coming from and I do think there is a tasteful way to represent that group of people if you really wanted to use them as a team mascot.

But the problem starts when the fans of the Braves, Indians, or Seminoles start doing stuff like that awful tomahawk chop chant. Because you then go from recognizing their bad-assery to turning them into a caricature.

 

[Texas Ace]

I understand what you are saying but don’t you feel like there is a way to honor them through the team name? There are other groups that are represented this way that don’t find it offensive.

Sure, hence some of suggestions I made.

 

[Texas Ace]

That's the issue, though. The Indians have not "gotten together and decided they didn't want their heritage used that way". That was made up by white people guilt shaming people into believing what they think is a slur even though the people that are of that lineage don't really care for the most part.

There's some of that going on too, for sure.

 

[Cotton]

start doing stuff like that awful tomahawk chop chant. Because you then go from recognizing their bad-assery to turning them into a caricature.

Don't you feel like the tomahawk chop is considered badass to Braves fans?

 

[Texas Ace]

Don't you feel like the tomahawk chop is considered badass to Braves fans?

That's it...to Braves fans, not the actual ethnic group itself.

I saw a piece on E60 once on this and there were plenty of Native Americans who weren't bothered by the team mascots, but the vast majority didn't care for the fake chanting and stuff like that because they felt like it made a mockery of something that they take very seriously.

The tomahawk chop being a prime example.

 

[Cotton]

That's it...to Braves fans, not the actual ethnic group itself.

The point is, to Braves fans, it isn't a mockery. It's a badass tradition that they love. Meaning it is a tribute to that lineage, not a slur.

 

[Texas Ace]

The point is, to Braves fans, it isn't a mockery. It's a badass tradition that they love. Meaning it is a tribute to that lineage, not a slur.

And again, it's NOT their place to make that distinction.

 

[mcnuttz]

I hate how sensitive we've become as a society and I can't stand this woke movement.

With that being said, it surprises me as to why people can't understand why Native Americans being used as team mascots are offensive.

I personally don't give a shit, but I do understand the concept of a using a human being or ethnic group as a team mascot being offensive, or at the very least, inappropriate.

"Indians", "Redskins", and even Seminoles aren't characters out of comic book or some other fictional medium.....they're a real life ethnic group.

For example, what if someone decided they wanted to make the team mascot the "Rednecks" or "Trailer Trash"?

And what if the logo that accompanied that name was some stereotypical idea of what that sort of person looks like or that persona consists of? Imagine a middle aged white guy with jean shorts and a t-shirt with the sleeves cut off, a cap on, a cigarette in his mouth and an "Ain't Skeered" tattoo on his arm?

It wouldn't matter how many other people who aren't white thought it was funny or didn't mind it, I'm willing to bet there would be a lot of white people from impoverished communities and even some who aren't poor but grow up or live in small towns across America who wouldn't care for it.

I know @mcnuttz has said a time or two on this board how he doesn't care for how it just seems to be ok to lump him into that group and/or label he and his family as rednecks or other offensive terms used to describe lower class white people simply because he lives in a small southern town.

So on that basis alone, I get why Native Americans are against the use of their history being used as a team mascot because they aren't fictional characters -- they're people.

If you don't understand that concept, then I guess the argument against it will never make sense to you.

We are an evolving planet.

Hopefully I live 50 more years, because I really do look forward to seeing how our current culture is viewed in the future.

We can sit here and say, "Damn! How could they name that baseball team the Georgia Crackers, San Francisco Chinamen, New York Jews, or the Duluth Eskimos?"

Back then did they not take exception to those names, or did the teams just not give a shit?

What are they going to say in the future about the progress that's been made these last few years?

 

[Texas Ace]

We are an evolving planet.

Hopefully I live 50 more years, because I really do look forward to seeing how our current culture is viewed in the future.

We can sit here and say, "Damn! How could they name that baseball team the Georgia Crackers, San Francisco Chinamen, New York Jews, or the Duluth Eskimos?"

Back then did they not take exception to those names, or did the teams just not give a shit?

What are they going to say in the future about the progress that's been made these last few years?

It's funny how we've evolved in some ways and yet have regressed in others.

We've become far more inclusive as a society in a lot of ways, but yet a lot more intolerant in others.

I'm just glad I don't have to raise any little kids in this day and age because I wouldn't even know how to begin to explain to them this pronoun nonsense or letting people identify as whatever they want.

 

[mcnuttz]

It's funny how we've evolved in some ways and yet have regressed in others.

We've become far more inclusive as a society in a lot of ways, but yet a lot more intolerant in others.

I'm just glad I don't have to raise any little kids in this day and age because I wouldn't even know how to being to explain to them this pronoun nonsense or letting people identify as whatever they want.

Our kids are going to be more tolerant of it, it's just the nature of the evolution.

I've told this story before, but we were in St. Louis a couple years ago and walk into a restaurant where the host was a man with shoulder-length hair, a mustache, and full face women's makeup.

I stood there in shock for a second, while all three of my kids just followed him right on to the table to be sat like it weren't no thang.

We're conditioned, plain and simple.

 

[Texas Ace]

Our kids are going to be more tolerant of it, it's just the nature of the evolution.

I've told this story before, but we were in St. Louis a couple years ago and walk into a restaurant where the host was a man with shoulder-length hair, a mustache, and full face women's makeup.

I stood there in shock for a second, while all three of my kids just followed him right on to the table to be sat like it weren't no thang.

We're conditioned, plain and simple.

That's a good point.

I have a daughter who just turned 21 today and she is far more accepting and open-minded than the wife and I are.

So, yeah.....you're right. This younger generation is just conditioned to this new world we live in.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Generally speaking, you're not wrong -- hence the reason why I suggested that Snyder should have reached out to the leaders from various tribes and worked with them to come to a good middle ground where they could keep the Native American theme going but do it in a way that Native Americans found honorable and tasteful.

But they said during the process that even names like "Warriors" would not be acceptable. They didn't want anything even could be construed as referring to Natives.

Which is on its face absurd, but like iam said, this wasn't about the tribes themselves. This was about wealthy white people wanting to virtue signal.

I've read many stories where most Natives were not offended by the name. Of course the E60 poll was going to find a poll where they outcome was the opposite, though, because ESPN. But there are many Oklahoma high schools within an hour of me that have Native mascot names and they haven't changed and aren't going to... and these are communities with actual large populations of Natives in on the decision, not woke suburban white people.

 

[Texas Ace]

But they said during the process that even names like "Warriors" would not be acceptable. They didn't want anything even could be construed as referring to Natives.

See, this is where you have to draw the line.

Like I said before, it's not my place to tell someone from another ethnic group or community what they should and shouldn't be offended by when it comes to the heritage and culture, but that works both ways.

White liberals don't get to tell you it's not ok to use Warriors because THEY find it offensive towards Native Americans.

What in the world is offensive with Warriors?

Good grief.

 

[bbgun]

What in the world is offensive with Warriors?

Good grief.

Even whitey is getting targeted, as in no more Minutemen or Colonials.

 

[Cotton]

This was about wealthy white people wanting to virtue signal.

Exactly my point.

 

[Cotton]

White liberals don't get to tell you it's not ok to use Warriors because THEY find it offensive towards Native Americans.

Exactly, and they shouldn't have any damn say in changing it from the Redskins. The actual Indians didn't have a problem with it for the most part.

 

[Genghis Khan]

Our kids are going to be more tolerant of it, it's just the nature of the evolution.

I actually don't think that's true. If anything it ebbs and flows on the whims of culture. But I don't think there is any eternal march of evolutionary progress towards ultimate tolerance.

In fact, I think we're actually less tolerant today (by the strict definition of tolerance) than when I was growing up.

 

[Genghis Khan]

But they said during the process that even names like "Warriors" would not be acceptable. They didn't want anything even could be construed as referring to Natives.

Which is on its face absurd, but like iam said, this wasn't about the tribes themselves. This was about wealthy white people wanting to virtue signal.

I've read many stories where most Natives were not offended by the name. Of course the E60 poll was going to find a poll where they outcome was the opposite, though, because ESPN. But there are many Oklahoma high schools within an hour of me that have Native mascot names and they haven't changed and aren't going to... and these are communities with actual large populations of Natives in on the decision, not woke suburban white people.

Yep. And I'd assume they didn't want warriors or anything referring to natives because they didn't want to go through this bullshit again when whims blow in yet another direction.

And when the Cleveland Indians have to change their name, it becomes blindingly obvious that all of this was about much more than simply Redskins being a slur, because Indians isn't a slur.

 

[Genghis Khan]

Exactly, and they shouldn't have any damn say in changing it from the Redskins. The actual Indians didn't have a problem with it for the most part.

That's why there shouldn't be a line at all. Once you give other people control it's really hard to take it back.

 

[Cotton]

That's why there shouldn't be a line at all. Once you give other people control it's really hard to take it back.

If there truly is an offensive thing you shouldn't be looking at the people not affected by it. Ask the people of the demographic it is supposedly offending. Ask them. And they did, and the vast majority of Indians had no issue with the name. More fuckin virtue signaling. It's ridiculous.