Cowboys Trade For George Pickens

[Chocolate Lab]

They played well against some of the better offenses in the league in the Bengals and even the Eagles in the first game, not to mention the Skins, although I don't truly believe they were an elite offense. But no defense is going to hold on when you have a completely incompetent offense (first Eagles game).

The defense is being way underrated because of how bad they were over the first 5-6 games, which I believe was an outlier for a number of reasons.

I expect them to be at least middle of the pack, with the potential to be top 8-10ish.

It would take a lot going wrong for them to be one of the worst in the league.

I doubt they'll be one of the worst in the league again, too. But that doesn't mean they'll be any good.

It seems like over the last many years we've gotten used to the offense carrying the team and the defense just being okay enough to get by. I wish we'd try to be more balanced and actually try to be good on defense again.

 

[NoDak]

Yeah, I'm not writing off Blue. I'm hopeful as well. He looks to have talent and to have been a relative value in the fifth.

But he's a fifth.

The fourth round kinda seems to be the Mendoza line for good RBs.

In a normal year, sure. But this year was freak depth at the position. Hell, there were RBs that went in the 5th and 6th that would go in the 4th in normal years.

 

[Simpleton]

I doubt they'll be one of the worst in the league again, too. But that doesn't mean they'll be any good.

It seems like over the last many years we've gotten used to the offense carrying the team and the defense just being okay enough to get by. I wish we'd try to be more balanced and actually try to be good on defense again.

For sure, although I'd argue that we're a good 1T away from being a top tier defense. Should we have taken Harmon or Grant in that case and rolled the dice on Bass/Hoffman/Jones at RG?

Maybe, they chose to gamble on Mazi and now Toia at 1T instead, so we'll see.

But either way I think our pass rush will be enough for the unit to at least be respectable, and if we can get some luck at CB (injuries) and/or 1T it could be a borderline top 10 unit.

 

[Simpleton]

In a normal year, sure. But this year was freak depth at the position. Hell, there were RBs that went in the 5th and 6th that would go in the 4th in normal years.

Yea Blue would've been a 3/4 in an average draft.

 

[NoDak]

In an average RB class I would agree about the fourth. But I'm not going to judge Blue because he went in the fifth instead of the fourth in the deepest RB class I have seen in over a decade. I'm not talking first round talent, I'm talking RB1-25 of a draft.

Time stamping MFer.

 

[Cowboysrock55]

They looked better in the middle of the year when guys played more disciplined, but that was also against some bad teams like the Giants and Panthers.

I think Bland coming back helped pretty significantly. We talk about the defense getting better in the second half of last season.

But I think you forget what we were trotting out there. Bland didn't play until the Redskins game. Parsons's missed the entire month of October. Lawrence missed basically the entire season. Your DE's last year weren't Parson's and Lawrence. Golston was your leading snap count getter at DE. Followed by Parsons and followed by Carl Lawson.

So when you say you can't see the improvement you have to compare it to the guys who actually played last year. Is Fowler/Ez/Kneeland/Sam Williams better than Golston/Carl Lawson/Tyrus Wheat? Absolutely. The problem is you don't think about the fact that Golston was your most used DE last year.

Is Solomon Thomas better than Carlos Watkins? Not even close, of course he is.

You say you fail to see how we upgraded much. I'd argue I can't see any place that we are worse on defense. The depth is all a million times better. Better depth at LBer, better depth everywhere on the D-line. And unless Bland gets hurt he is really your best corner. No question about it. I think he is a big reason why the best you saw of our defense last year was after Bland came back.

Starters are great on defense but you don't want guys playing 100% of snaps. Parsons only played on 63% of our defensive snaps last year. To ignore the other 40% like it's nothing is kind of silly to me. Those other 40% of the plays when he isn't on the field, got a hell of a lot better in the offseason. Osa played 79% of the defensive snaps last year. Do you really want him playing that much? Of course not but who was your backup 3 tech? Carlos Watkins? I'm not saying Solomon Thomas is some world beater but the dude can play some 3 tech.

 

[Cowboysrock55]

I doubt they'll be one of the worst in the league again, too. But that doesn't mean they'll be any good.

It seems like over the last many years we've gotten used to the offense carrying the team and the defense just being okay enough to get by. I wish we'd try to be more balanced and actually try to be good on defense again.

I think that's a little short term memory. Some of those Quinn defense were awesome to watch. Don't get me wrong, they floundered against the run in some of the biggest games. But watching those defenses was a lot of fun. The pass rush was insane with guys like Fowler rotating in off the bench. And once we got a lead it was like sack/turnover city. Last year was a total mulligan on defense. We brought in a new defensive coordinator, lost guys in free agency, replaced/added almost no talent and were decimated by injuries.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

I think Bland coming back helped pretty significantly. We talk about the defense getting better in the second half of last season.

But I think you forget what we were trotting out there. Bland didn't play until the Redskins game. Parsons's missed the entire month of October. Lawrence missed basically the entire season. Your DE's last year weren't Parson's and Lawrence. Golston was your leading snap count getter at DE. Followed by Parsons and followed by Carl Lawson.

So when you say you can't see the improvement you have to compare it to the guys who actually played last year. Is Fowler/Ez/Kneeland/Sam Williams better than Golston/Carl Lawson/Tyrus Wheat? Absolutely. The problem is you don't think about the fact that Golston was your most used DE last year.

Fine, but the problem with blaming injuries is that injuries happen every year. Unless you're talking about losing your superstars -- that's legit. Micah being out was huge. I personally don't think losing Lawrence was some crippling thing because he's not that good anymore. But you can't say we had people hurt last year, because people are going to get hurt this year, also.

If I'm being positive, I do think Loofa will be a pretty good player, I'm curious to see if maybe Eberflus can get something out of Murray because he is physically talented, and of course Bland's injury was a bone so he should be 100%. But there are a lot of moving parts, as Parcells used to say.

 

[Cowboysrock55]

Fine, but the problem with blaming injuries is that injuries happen every year. Unless you're talking about losing your superstars -- that's legit. Micah being out was huge. But you can't say we had people hurt last year, because people are going to get hurt this year, also.

Absolutely and no one knows if or who those injuries will hit. I could be excited for next year and Parsons goes down and the defense goes to shit. Of course that's a possibility. But that's sort of my point, this defense is a lot deeper than last year. And no I don't think it's normal to be picking DE's off the scrap heap because your top 5 DE's on the depth chart all are out. That's kind of an outlier.

All I can do is judge the defense right now vs who actually played last year. And if Golston was your most used D-lineman, I'd say right now things look a shit ton better.

 

[Genghis Khan]

Most of it? Last year we were tied fourth worst in the league in yards/play and were second worst in points allowed. They looked better in the middle of the year when guys played more disciplined, but that was also against some bad teams like the Giants and Panthers.

And I don't see how we upgraded that much. Eze should be a good situational rusher but we still can't stop the run at all unless we hit the lotto on a 7th round NT.. I love Revel's potential, but how fast can he be ready, and there's a great chance he's just replacing Diggs, who may never be the same. Our safeties aren't getting any younger.

I guess the best hope is that we get big leads and teams have to play from behind like in the Quinn years. But that's a lot to ask week in and week out, and doesn't work as well against better teams.

Exactly how I feel. The defense worries me a lot.

 

[Cowboysrock55]

Exactly how I feel. The defense worries me a lot.

Outside of NT what position worries you the most? Corner?

 

[Genghis Khan]

Outside of NT what position worries you the most? Corner?

Almost all of them. DT, CB, LB especially.

We've had times in the past where we've brought in guys that we thought would help and they've completely flamed out, guys like Thornton and Poe. So it's hard for me to count on some of the new guys until we see them for us, on the field. And we didn't address NT all that well it doesn't seem to me. CB we addressed with a talented rookie who is hurt and might not get any camp time or much in order to get acclimated to the pros. I'm not sure how much I'd count on a rookie. Who knows when Diggs comes back. We traded for basically a former bust from Buffalo. I think the position is still precarious right now.

With LB, it feels kind of piecemeal until Overshown returns, and I'm not sure he's reliable health wise at this point, even if he comes back in like November. The other guys all seem to have flaws.

We all know the issues against the run, particularly with regard to NT / 1T.

Those things aside, I don't buy into some of the revisionist excuses I'm hearing for how bad it got at times last year.

For example, you can say, oh, Micah got hurt. But he played I think in 13 games, he only missed about 4. And he was in there on some of our worst performances, like against new Orleans. Even when we were mostly in tact injury wise it wasn't good. You can say Lawrence was hurt also, but he's not exactly back. Yes we added Fowler and I support the addition but how will he do away from Quinn now? I don't think it's so obvious he'll be the same player.

I do think some of the issues was scheme related and it took some time for the defense and zimmer to kind of mesh, which would explain why it got somewhat better as the year progressed. But zimmer has shown many times over the years to be a good DC so it can't have been just that.

Those are just some of the issues. I think we had a long way to go to get the defense better. I will concede that I do think we improved. I like some of the players we brought in. But I'm not convinced it will be that much improvement.

I don't think the defense will suck but I don't think we'll be in the top half of the league, or at the very least I think we may be fine against bad offenses but we'll struggle pretty hard against good playoff type offenses. Which means we have a glass ceiling as usual.

 

[Cowboysrock55]

I certainly agree that there is a big unknown element to the defense but I kind of like that. The defense right now is vastly different than the one we started last year with. I kind of like that fact. Zimmer was sort of handed the defense and told, make due with the guys left from last year.

Eberflus on the other hand was sort of given the pieces he thinks he needs. Sure Osa, Parsons and Mazi are the same along with the safeties. But to start this year it's basically 6 different guys than the starting lineup from last year. New LBers, new corners and a new starting DE.

Bland, Revel, Fowler, Murray, Sanborn and Elam are I'm assuming the new starters to begin this season. (Bland was out before the season started last year and this year I have a feeling Diggs will be out most of the year to start). And yeah, I trust Eberflus to have picked the right LBers. LBer is sort of his thing. But it is a massive unknown.

 

[Texas Ace]

I always love hearing Dez Bryant offer his highly informed take. I wonder what Greg Hardy has to say.

Meanwhile the real leaders Romo and Witten never say anything controversial.

Dez isn't wrong though.

 

[Rev]

Dez isn't wrong though.

You cant explain anything to him regarding Garrett. Its almost like we are in the President Trump 2 thread all over again.

 

[bbgun]

 

[Genghis Khan]

 

[NoDak]

What was the cost? Would the ravens let a first round WR with 2 years left go for a 3rd? I doubt it.

 

[Smitty]

You cant explain anything to him regarding Garrett. Its almost like we are in the President Trump 2 thread all over again.

Everyone on this subject is the beacon of reason.

 

[boozeman]

Bateman is a steady WR2.

Pickens more talented, that wins.

Dumb debate.