2024 POTUS Thread...

[Plan9Misfit]

You don't think 40 million illegals (If we buy that number) would have a massive impact on an economy of 330 million? I disagree, and yes they are being housed somewhere. Low income or not they are taking up homes. Which displaces other low income people. Supply and demand is a real thing and when your supply is constant but the spike in demand goes up 12%, that's going to have really dramatic consequences.

But of course you'll never know the real numbers, nor will I. Because the government is never going to admit the numbers if they could actually track them. So none of us can really track the impact that illegals pouring into this country has had on the economy. All we really know is that it has had some type of impact. I disagree with the thought that it is imperceptible though.

And just to be clear I agree with a lot of the other factors you have talked about that have driven up the housing market costs. Covid had a massive impact, drove up material costs and inventory became stagnant. When the amount of housing being built isn't keeping up it's also going to drive prices up for example.

I said that if it’s around the 11 million number it isn’t because that’s relatively small. But if it’s at that 40 million number, yes, it’ll have an impact. It would have to. The challenge is that the data that I find is really noisy because it’s obviously difficult to calculate (for obvious reasons). Even still, it’s highly unlikely that any illegal immigrant is buying property in either neighborhood that I own property in (or similar neighborhoods in other cities and counties) because they won’t be able to afford it. The data and demographics don’t support that. Again, it’ll impact low income and poverty stricken areas, but there’s no fucking way on Earth that an uneducated illegal immigrant is going to cause home prices in affluent neighborhoods to rise, because they won’t contribute to any demand in those areas.

 

[Plan9Misfit]

A 3 bedroom 1 bathroom house in a small farming community in California where my brother lives just rented for $2200.

Tons of illegals because that’s the type of area they work in. 3 families living in one house. $2200 isn’t a lot when you’re splitting it presumably between 3 families.

Who wants to live like that, though? And next to none of them are buying homes. Nobody is buying homes really right now unless they’re also selling one.

That’s my point. Low income areas. Those won’t cause national home prices to rise, nor will it flood schools nationally. It may increase in a few concentrated areas, but not everywhere. Not by a country mile. Like I said, my wife is a teacher and my son is in middle school. What you’re talking about isn’t something that we’ve seen in the 22 years that she’s been a teacher, and that’s across two states and three school districts.

 

[Plan9Misfit]

And while we’re on the subject of economics, how much do you think prices would rise if those farmers paid American workers to work in the fields picking that produce? Given that Americans don’t want to do that work to begin with, how high would you expect price levels to rise, knowing that wages would likely be tripled what they pay immigrants, benefits would be required, as would satisfactory housing? Are you prepared to pay 5-6 times more for your produce? Because that’s what it would result in. Immediate inflation. That’s the unfortunate and inconvenient truth that no one likes to talk about.

You also mentioned the terrible living conditions that many immigrants live in when they come to the U.S. I agree that they’re terrible. So, can you imagine how bad the conditions were in their native countries, given that they came here and chose to live in the current conditions? It seems obvious that it was worse where they came from.

So, rather than vilifying them and addressing them as something less than human beings, why not focus on identifying a viable legal path to citizenship (which neither political party wants), enforce the laws we currently have (which neither political party does), and reinforce border security to help prevent the violent immigrants from coming here? Building “a wall” doesn’t do shit, as they’ll just dig right under it, like they already have. Call me a cynic, but if the Republicans fancy themselves “The Party of Ideas”, then maybe they should come up with some, because we sure as hell know that the Democrats won’t.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

No offense plan9, but you sound like a Limousine Liberal Globalist.

1. If it doesn't affect me in my affluent areas, it doesn't matter
2. It might make prices rise a bit, so I'm against it even despite the other societal problems it causes.
3. Americans should pay the price because other countries are horribly mismanaged.

 

[Sheik]

I split my time about 50/50 between CA and TX. And, properties are not skyrocketing because of immigration. That’s hilarious and totally untrue. I’m not sure what part of CA you were in, but that’s not why properties are increasing almost anywhere in southern CA. And seeing that my wife is a school teacher and has worked both in southern CA and TX, I can tell you that unless you’re in a ghetto or in the Fresno/Stockton/central CA area, it’s not nearly as bad as you describe.

Fresno is the area I’m speaking of. My wife is also a teacher who stopped teaching because of the demographics. It got harder and harder to teach and support the parents when. One of them speak English.

I think we’re talking about two different things. I’m talking about the rental market. You’re talking about home values.

 

[Sheik]

No offense plan9, but you sound like a Limousine Liberal Globalist.

1. If it doesn't affect me in my affluent areas, it doesn't matter
2. It might make prices rise a bit, so I'm against it even despite the other societal problems it causes.
3. Americans should pay the price because other countries are horribly mismanaged.

It totally does seem like that.

We’ve had worker programs in the past that worked just fine. The problem is, none of them go back to their native homes now. They stay here and have babies and then those babies become a ward of the state they chose to live in.

It boils down to, do you want social services being taken advantage of and stretched thin to where nobody really gets out of poverty because there isn’t enough resources, or do you want to bless every border jumper with a path to become citizens and vote for policies that made their countries shit in the first place because they think democrats are their friends?

I don’t know, I don’t think I’m dehumanizing anyone. I think I’m interested in getting a handle on the situation and focusing on native born and legal immigrants who actually deserves a hand up when they need it.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

I don’t know, I don’t think I’m dehumanizing anyone. I think I’m interested in getting a handle on the situation and focusing on native born and legal immigrants who actually deserves a hand up when they need it.

If nothing else, where do you draw the line on how many people we take in? There are probably at least a billion people far worse off than in the US. Are we supposed to take them all?

 

[Sheik]

If nothing else, where do you draw the line on how many people we take in? There are probably at least a billion people far worse off than in the US. Are we supposed to take them all?

I know what I’d prefer, but it’s not really realistic.

I’d rather put a 5 year freeze on immigration period. Close the border tighter than an airport hand let the country relax into some kind of normal.

 

[Plan9Misfit]

No offense plan9, but you sound like a Limousine Liberal Globalist.

1. If it doesn't affect me in my affluent areas, it doesn't matter
2. It might make prices rise a bit, so I'm against it even despite the other societal problems it causes.
3. Americans should pay the price because other countries are horribly mismanaged.

None taken. My point isn’t that it doesn’t matter, only that it’s likely not as severe as people make it out to be. I hate sensationalism and I hate politicians, so I will open challenge and question basically anything they say regardless of who it comes from; even more so when we’re talking about the use of tax dollars because I’m sick of having my money stolen from me and then pissed away on fruitless ventures. Because, the more those fail, the more money those fucking vultures take to fund their pet projects. That dumb fuck border wall is no different.

 

[Plan9Misfit]

Fresno is the area I’m speaking of. My wife is also a teacher who stopped teaching because of the demographics. It got harder and harder to teach and support the parents when. One of them speak English.

I think we’re talking about two different things. I’m talking about the rental market. You’re talking about home values.

Yeah, like I said, it’s bad in central CA. And, thank you for clarifying that. My nephew used to live in Stockton and moved to Los Angeles because he saw that community changing. But, the rent costs in southern California aren’t affected by immigration all that much. I’m sure they play a role to a degree, but it’s not as impactful as other market conditions.

 

[Plan9Misfit]

If nothing else, where do you draw the line on how many people we take in? There are probably at least a billion people far worse off than in the US. Are we supposed to take them all?

I’d like to see the existing laws enforced and have us increase the number of border security personnel before we do anything else. Until we know what works vs what doesn’t, all we’d be doing is throwing good money on top of bad, which really pisses me off, because I hate taxation of any kind.

 

[Plan9Misfit]

I know what I’d prefer, but it’s not really realistic.

I’d rather put a 5 year freeze on immigration period. Close the border tighter than an airport hand let the country relax into some kind of normal.

I’m 100% in support of that. Hence, why I want more border security agents, not a wall. A wall doesn’t do shit, but more agents will help to an extent. We all know that it’s impossible to curb it entirely, as the border is simply too large, but slowing the bleed would be helpful.

 

[NoDak]

I hate sensationalism

So, rather than vilifying them and addressing them as something less than human beings,

 

[Plan9Misfit]

What? I don’t call them “illegals” and treat them as a lesser life form. That’s sensationalism.

 

[boozeman]

Yeah, I don’t believe any of that, as there is no statistical or economic evidence to support it. I’m 100% in support of border security, but to suggest that it drove up rent, housing prices, and was “clogging up schools” is damn near laughable.

Rent and housing prices, no.

Clogging up schools, absolutely.

 

[NoDak]

What? I don’t call them “illegals” and treat them as a lesser life form. That’s sensationalism.

But people that don't want them here do treat them as a lesser life form? Gotcha.

And they ARE here illegally. Stating that they are an illegal immigrant is not treating them as a lesser life form.

 

[Plan9Misfit]

But people that don't want them here do treat them as a lesser life form? Gotcha.

And they ARE here illegally. Stating that they are an illegal immigrant is not treating them as a lesser life form.

No one is arguing that they’re here illegally. But, calling them “illegals” rather than “illegal immigrants” is addressing them in a derogatory manner, which vilifies them to ignorant people. Politicians know that. It’s why they use that term. They want the populous to hate them, because it helps their agenda with creating division across the populous between Republicans and Democrats. And, placing people in cages like what Obama and Trump did doesn’t exactly suggest that they were being treated like human beings.

 

[boozeman]

It totally does seem like that.

We’ve had worker programs in the past that worked just fine. The problem is, none of them go back to their native homes now. They stay here and have babies and then those babies become a ward of the state they chose to live in.

It boils down to, do you want social services being taken advantage of and stretched thin to where nobody really gets out of poverty because there isn’t enough resources, or do you want to bless every border jumper with a path to become citizens and vote for policies that made their countries shit in the first place because they think democrats are their friends?

I don’t know, I don’t think I’m dehumanizing anyone. I think I’m interested in getting a handle on the situation and focusing on native born and legal immigrants who actually deserves a hand up when they need it.

Good luck.

 

[Sheik]

Good luck.

No. You.

 

[Cowboysrock55]

Even still, it’s highly unlikely that any illegal immigrant is buying property in either neighborhood that I own property in (or similar neighborhoods in other cities and counties) because they won’t be able to afford it.

I think you misunderstand the housing market. The low level prices go up, it pushes everything up. If you think a shithole suddenly costing 300,000 because of demand is going to make the awesome 300,000 house stay at 300,000 you're mistaken. It creates an upward pressure. No different than a $15 dollar an hour burger flipper means the nurse isn't going to get paid $15 an hour anymore. If shitholes sell for more, then the next level of housing prices are going to go up too. And it continues up the food chain. It is how a housing shortage works.