2021 Random Cowboys Stuff Thread

[Plan9Misfit]

Secretly Jerry wishes he could pull off one last master stroke that would bring Aaron Rogers and MM back together for one last Super Bowl hurrah

I just wish that Jerry will have a major stroke.

 

[Smitty]

And?

It's just some dude's opinion, a dude I've never heard of at that.

Our defense was so atrocious and has so far to go to even be average it's hard to believe we're the 4th most talented team. Especially since we barely touched free agency.

We'll see once everyone gets on the field, but we'd have had to nail this draft and I'm not so sure we did.

If this defense improves significantly it'll likely be from coaching (Quinn), much like the improvement we made from Kiffin to Marinelli.

So you are taking the position that the team isn't that talented then.

 

[Smitty]

It is also not perfect.

I will tell you this though. Garrett took more talented teams than this into the 8-8 iceberg.

I agree.

Everyone still has their sensitivity up over this issue but this isn't a defense of Garrett, it was time for him to go as we've all agreed on by this point.

However it IS a pushback against the idea that Garrett's major fault was "taking an ultra talented team and completely underachieving every year."

Well, a fucking year later no one seems to agree that this team is ultra talented on this board, despite some dork and his metrics showing that we are the 4th most talented.

I tend to fall in with the current board consensus: this defense is too shitty to expect a Super Bowl contender. But it's been that way for years now.

So when we were getting to Divisional Rounds, that wasn't really underachieving.

The reason Garrett had to go lies elsewhere.

 

[Cotton]

So you are taking the position that the team isn't that talented then.

Why are we discussing this? This team hasn't played a down of football yet. It's a completely different team on defense, so how about we get into the season before discussing how terrible they are.

 

[shoop]

If we are just basing this off of last year it is hard to argue talent. The defense was in shambles, we lost Dak and most of the oline. Before that the offense was putting up huge numbers. No one saw Jaylon and LVE crumbling as bad as they did and who knows how much it affected the defense when the offense started playing poorly. I agree the defense was trash but there were definitely some contributing factors

 

[Simpleton]

I agree.

Everyone still has their sensitivity up over this issue but this isn't a defense of Garrett, it was time for him to go as we've all agreed on by this point.

However it IS a pushback against the idea that Garrett's major fault was "taking an ultra talented team and completely underachieving every year."

Well, a fucking year later no one seems to agree that this team is ultra talented on this board, despite some dork and his metrics showing that we are the 4th most talented.

I tend to fall in with the current board consensus: this defense is too shitty to expect a Super Bowl contender. But it's been that way for years now.

So when we were getting to Divisional Rounds, that wasn't really underachieving.

The reason Garrett had to go lies elsewhere.

We were ultra-talented in 2019 with barely any injuries of note. Dak, Elliott, a fully healthy OL (pre-Frederick retirement on top of that), Cooper, Gallup, Cobb, Quinn and Lawrence fully healthy on defense, Byron and so forth.

The only major loss was LVE for half a year. If we were to be that healthy this year and go 8-8 I'd be calling for McCarthy's head just like Garrett's.

 

[Genghis Khan]

So you are taking the position that the team isn't that talented then.

4th in the league talented? No.

Very talented on offense. Remains to be seen on defense because it depends a lot on several guys we haven't see yet in the pros.

That said, last season if healthy they're probably around 10 wins. I expect something similar this season assuming health. They aren't untalented.

 

[Smitty]

We were ultra-talented in 2019 with barely any injuries of note. Dak, Elliott, a fully healthy OL (pre-Frederick retirement on top of that), Cooper, Gallup, Cobb, Quinn and Lawrence fully healthy on defense, Byron and so forth.

The only major loss was LVE for half a year. If we were to be that healthy this year and go 8-8 I'd be calling for McCarthy's head just like Garrett's.

What if we get bounced in the divisional round?

I don't think that defense with Byron was much better. Byron was overrated, we still had no safety talent to speak of, still no DTs to speak of, and LVE and Jaylon were LVE and Jaylon, obviously not as good as we thought. And of course this ranking here includes Parsons and Cox as well.

Just saying -- I am pushing back on the notion that this team has been much better than an early playoff exit team the past half decade based on talent. It has not.

This isn't a defense of Garrett, its an indictment of the front office.

 

[Smitty]

4th in the league talented? No.

Very talented on offense. Remains to be seen on defense because it depends a lot on several guys we haven't see yet in the pros.

That said, last season if healthy they're probably around 10 wins. I expect something similar this season assuming health. They aren't untalented.

Yeah, they aren't a bottom feeder talent wise. They are somewhere between 8-8 and a divisional round playoff team I'd say, like they have been for a decade now.

It is a little disappointing that here we are entering year 2 and I don't feel like McCarthy has moved the needle on that front.

 

[boozeman]

Yeah, they aren't a bottom feeder talent wise. They are somewhere between 8-8 and a divisional round playoff team I'd say, like they have been for a decade now.

It is a little disappointing that here we are entering year 2 and I don't feel like McCarthy has moved the needle on that front.

Whomever is the head coach in Dallas is hamstrung by our philosophy (offense comes first) and the DC. That still does not absolve Garrett for failing with good talent.

 

[boozeman]

 

[Genghis Khan]

I tend to fall in with the current board consensus: this defense is too shitty to expect a Super Bowl contender. But it's been that way for years now.

You really think the defense in 2019 was as bad as the 2020 version? Because that's just not true.

We lost some very productive players from the 2019 team. Byron Jones, Robert Quinn, Maliek Collins, plus some depth guys.

Add in a massive ton of injuries and it's a vastly different team

 

[Genghis Khan]

Yeah, they aren't a bottom feeder talent wise. They are somewhere between 8-8 and a divisional round playoff team I'd say, like they have been for a decade now.

It is a little disappointing that here we are entering year 2 and I don't feel like McCarthy has moved the needle on that front.

He's had exactly one season, with massive injuries and no QB1 for most of it.

Let's see what he does in year 2 before we condemn him.

I don't think this team is ultra talented but it's not untalented and coaching can certainly make a big difference. We'll see.

 

[Simpleton]

What if we get bounced in the divisional round?

I don't think that defense with Byron was much better. Byron was overrated, we still had no safety talent to speak of, still no DTs to speak of, and LVE and Jaylon were LVE and Jaylon, obviously not as good as we thought. And of course this ranking here includes Parsons and Cox as well.

Just saying -- I am pushing back on the notion that this team has been much better than an early playoff exit team the past half decade based on talent. It has not.

This isn't a defense of Garrett, its an indictment of the front office.

Given that it's only McCarthy's second season I'd be fine with that, but if we then go 8-8 in year 3 without any significant mitigating circumstances, which is obviously the pattern Garrett followed for most of his time here, then I'd again want him fired.

And yes, the 2019 defense wasn't anywhere near elite but it was better than the literal historically bad defense we put on the field last year, to go along with a fully healthy, fully functional offense.

 

[Smitty]

You really think the defense in 2019 was as bad as the 2020 version? Because that's just not true.

We lost some very productive players from the 2019 team. Byron Jones, Robert Quinn, Maliek Collins, plus some depth guys.

Add in a massive ton of injuries and it's a vastly different team

I'm comparing what we had then to what we have now, so I'm not taking injuries into account, as this chart also was not.

And no I am not bemoaning any loss of Maliek Collins or Robert Quinn. Byron Jones hurts a bit but not a real needle mover either, I think the difference between him and say Diggs is minimal in overall quality, which is why we let him walk.

Now granted 2019 we also should have been much better than we were, so this isn't a debate about Garrett getting fired or not.

Like I said, it's pushback on the overall notion that this team has been ultra talented and should have been doing more than getting boucned in divisional round matchups. I don't really think it is that talented. The talent level hasn't changed that much in the past 3-4 seasons and the board seems to agree at this point that we aren't really close to the 4th best team, talent wise.

 

[Smitty]

He's had exactly one season, with massive injuries and no QB1 for most of it.

Let's see what he does in year 2 before we condemn him.

I don't think this team is ultra talented but it's not untalented and coaching can certainly make a big difference. We'll see.

Definitely in wait and see mode.

I just feel like a dark cloud of foreboding is hanging over everything. As I sit here now I just don't feel like even if everything breaks right that this team can hang for more than a wildcard appearance or so.

 

[Simpleton]

Yeah, they aren't a bottom feeder talent wise. They are somewhere between 8-8 and a divisional round playoff team I'd say, like they have been for a decade now.

It is a little disappointing that here we are entering year 2 and I don't feel like McCarthy has moved the needle on that front.

This actually is a defense of Garrett by seemingly equating what he had during his tenure to what McCarthy had last year and this year, and that's not the case.

The 2014 and 2016 teams were infinitely more talented than this one with Romo/Dez/Murray at the peak of their powers in 2014, Elliott seemingly at the peak of his in 2016, and an OL that I'd argue was historically great during both seasons. I'll say the defenses overall were mostly a wash between 2014 to 2016 to now (except for last season).

The only thing this team really has over 2014/2016 is the trio of WR's and a more seasoned Dak (only in comparison to 2016, Romo in 2014 is a wash mostly), but I'd argue that having an OL at it's peak in those years was more impactful, especially with Murray and Elliott at their peaks. Unless the OL is completely healthy for the most part and either Connor Williams or Biadasz take a huge leap to Pro Bowl caliber players those 2014 and 2016 teams were clearly more talented/better equipped to go deep in the playoffs than what we have now.

I'd argue that the 2019 team was at the very least equally talented as what we have now, if not more so, and even with all that said I'd still want McCarthy fired if we went 8-8.

 

[Genghis Khan]

This talk about talent versus coaching ignores the fact that the coaching has directly led to failures that had little to do with the talent on the field.

Take the 2013 team. The defense was hot garbage (a lot due to Kiffin's horrid coaching).

But that still should have been at least a 10 win playoff team. We blew 2 big second half leads against Detroit and Green Bay when we were too retarded to lean on our dominant running game.

We weren't the most talented team in the league but we had enough to get further than we did that season.

It's been a long time since I've felt we had a coaching advantage over other teams, probably since Parcells. I was hoping McCarthy would give us that but I don't think we've seen it so far (obviously injuries have played a part). Let's hope that changes in 21.

 

[Smitty]

This actually is a defense of Garrett by seemingly equating what he had during his tenure to what McCarthy had last year and this year, and that's not the case.

You can take it however you want. My point is that this team still kinda sucks, is all, like it has for a while now. We have thought at various times we are so talented but it's become apparent that we really aren't. Especially on defense, and it's been this way for quite some time.

The 2014 and 2016 teams were infinitely more talented than this one with Romo/Dez/Murray at the peak of their powers in 2014, Elliott seemingly at the peak of his in 2016, and an OL that I'd argue was historically great during both seasons. I'll say the defenses overall were mostly a wash between 2014 to 2016 to now (except for last season).

Yeah the defenses are most certainly a wash. The OL and Elliott have decreased, but the WR talent is up like 200-fold. Prescott is also assumed to be much better a player going into this season than he was in say, 2017.

Again, I don't see much difference in terms of an across-the-board talent level from 2016-18 and 2019-20.

And as I sit here I feel like my prediction even with a healthy lineup would be maybe wildcard or divisional round, and taking advantage of a weak division at that.

I didn't feel like that last year. With another year of reflection on the state of the roster, that seems to be what makes sense.

And in retrospect that's how it has been for a decade now. If things go right, we can make the playoffs and not much more.

We will see. Of course McCarthy is capable of getting the team to overachieve and do more.

But at this point it doesn't seem like anyone is counting on it.

Just saying at some point the finger has to be pointed at someone besides the coach here for this decade long stagnation. We have almost no hope that our talent is capable of going up against the league's elite like Tampa, Green Bay, the Chiefs, and the Ravens.

 

[Cotton]

This talk about talent versus coaching ignores the fact that the coaching has directly led to failures that had little to do with the talent on the field.

Take the 2013 team. The defense was hot garbage (a lot due to Kiffin's horrid coaching).

But that still should have been at least a 10 win playoff team. We blew 2 big second half leads against Detroit and Green Bay when we were too retarded to lean on our dominant running game.

We weren't the most talented team in the league but we had enough to get further than we did that season.

It's been a long time since I've felt we had a coaching advantage over other teams, probably since Parcells. I was hoping McCarthy would gives us that but I don't think we've seen it so far (obviously injuries have played a part). Let's hope that changes in 21.

I'll never forget that Green Bay game. 7 total rushing attempts in the second half after utterly dominating them in the first half, and having a sizable lead. It was the most unreal half of football I may have ever watched.