2019 Draft Chatter Thread...

[Simpleton]

Maybe.... I feel like we say every year "We got so and so in the 5th and he could've been a late third."

But there was no real buzz about Jackson being a Day 2 pick as far as I can tell -- again, not that I really did much research.

I am just saying, I don't have a great feeling. If Hill is good, McGovern is good, Joe Jackson is really a Day 2 guy, Mike Jackson is Anthony Brown, Pollard is Kamara, Weber is a solid backup bell cow, Jelks was a steal, etc, well, then why do we all have a bad feeling about this draft? If all those outcomes were likely, this would be like 2016 lite.

It's way more like 2009. Most of these guys have the potential you are identifying, but I'm guessing their chances of reaching it are way worse than our average drafts in recent years.

Those opinions are all coming from different people though. I don't think Pollard is going to be even a homeless man's Kamara, I'm bullish on Mike Jackson but I don't expect him to be Anthony Brown, and while I think Jelks was a steal, the odds are definitely against a prospect with his profile.

I'm almost certain that McGovern will be a good starter, I like the chances of Joe Jackson and Weber being nice rotational guys, and I'm optimistic about Hill but ultimately I think the best case scenario is we get 2 starters and 2-3 solid rotational guys. That outcome is not guaranteed by any means though, although usually after the draft people are going to talk about the guys they drafted in terms of the best case scenario.

Last year I was certain that LVE, Williams and Gallup would be at least good starters, if not potentially elite in LVE's case, this year McGovern is the only guy I feel that way about.

 

[Cowboysrock55]

Also, not that this is the be-all, end-all, but obviously it's how we are all evaluating (ie, immediately), but the consensus is pretty much that our draft was among the worst.

Not really sure about this "consensus" is. NFL.com gave us like an A but they loved Hill as an early second rounder. Kiper basically gave us a middle of the pack grade and he wasn't a Hill fan.

Its funny though. You'll see one site listing a player as a massive reach and another listing the same player as a steal. There is no real consensus. But you don't seem to be saying much about the players. Only that you think they were all reaches. So what site are you looking at? Because it's not your opinion on the players. Nothing wrong with that just curious who you think is the correct opinion.

I get your problem with Hill. But do you really think the other guys were massive reaches? I'm not a fan of the Pollard pick for example even though McShay lists him as our best pick. If I graded that pick I'd say its poor but I don't think that's the concensus. Just that the consensus has no real idea of the Cowboys.

 

[Simpleton]

Also, not that this is the be-all, end-all, but obviously it's how we are all evaluating (ie, immediately), but the consensus is pretty much that our draft was among the worst.

So I'm just not buying the hype around the Jacksons, Pollard, that Hill is truly a worthy 2nd round talent, etc.

I think we reached. A lot. And I have a bad feeling that this draft is gonna be left really lacking in comparison to the last 5 years or so of our drafting.

This is probably because:

1. We didn't have a 1st, and no matter what anybody says this almost always results in an automatic downgrade because whether they know it or not most of these pundits are comparing classes against each other.
2. Hill is a very narrow scheme-specific fit and most pundits develop rankings based on a generic scale, not a team-specific scale as individual teams do, and then they "grade" based off those rankings.
3. Despite McGovern being good value I assume many are either consciously or subconsciously downgrading because it's a pick that likely won't have much impact in 2019.

The thing is, every year there's always 2-4 classes that seem to have been drafted based on lists like Kiper's "best available" where each pick seems to be a guy everybody is wondering, "how is this guy still available?"

And how often do those classes ever work out with 3-4 Pro Bowlers?

Almost never.

 

[boozeman]

 

[Smitty]

Not really sure about this "consensus" is. NFL.com gave us like an A but they loved Hill as an early second rounder. Kiper basically gave us a middle of the pack grade and he wasn't a Hill fan.

Its funny though. You'll see one site listing a player as a massive reach and another listing the same player as a steal. There is no real consensus. But you don't seem to be saying much about the players. Only that you think they were all reaches. So what site are you looking at? Because it's not your opinion on the players. Nothing wrong with that just curious who you think is the correct opinion.

I get your problem with Hill. But do you really think the other guys were massive reaches? I'm not a fan of the Pollard pick for example even though McShay lists him as our best pick. If I graded that pick I'd say its poor but I don't think that's the concensus. Just that the consensus has no real idea of the Cowboys.

Someone made a spreadsheet. We are universally near the bottom of everyone's grades.


Do I think "EVERY" pick was a reach? No, not every pick.... but I don't see any values either, really, besides McGovern. Success in the NFL draft, and thus success in the NFL, is about beating out the value of the average other NFL team. You have to get "steals" in the mid rounds to get ahead -- like us with Prescott in the 4th, Brown in the 6th, etc. This draft had none of that. In fact, like I said, I think most pics were reaches (Hill, Pollard) or certainly only "average" values (Joe Jackson, Mike Jackson).

 

[Smitty]

^ PS Chad Reuter at NFL.com, what a joke. Most grades are "A's." Where is the usefulness in that? Just worthless.

 

[Rev]

We always have June 1stmas......

 

[Cowboysrock55]

Someone made a spreadsheet. We are universally near the bottom of everyone's grades.


Do I think "EVERY" pick was a reach? No, not every pick.... but I don't see any values either, really, besides McGovern. Success in the NFL draft, and thus success in the NFL, is about beating out the value of the average other NFL team. You have to get "steals" in the mid rounds to get ahead -- like us with Prescott in the 4th, Brown in the 6th, etc. This draft had none of that. In fact, like I said, I think most pics were reaches (Hill, Pollard) or certainly only "average" values (Joe Jackson, Mike Jackson).

A graph is only as good as the data you're using. I don't really care what TD Wire says about our draft. Or the Miami Herald either frankly. I think Simp is pretty spot on. A lot of these services ding you pretty heavily for not having a first rounder and give you major props when you have 2 first round players. And honestly it's probably not even fair to call them services. I doubt the dude for Miami Herald by the way is scouting 200 prospects in this draft. The Cowboys didn't start with a lot of draft capital because of Amari Cooper and winning too many games. So at a glance of course we got less than teams who had high first round picks.

As far as your analysis of the day three picks I think we would just have to disagree. Joe Jackson was a steal in the late fifth almost sixth round and Weber should have never been available in the seventh. Frankly Jelks shouldn't have been either but our DE room is so log jammed now that I'm sure a talented guy isn't going to make the roster.

 

[Cowboysrock55]

Also while talking about draft grades our 2016 draft was stellar. Yet go back and look at the draft grades. We got a shit load of C grades. It was not a well liked draft by the same people you're talking about above.

Pete Prisco, CBS Sports: C- (Prisco's worst grade given)

Best pick: I love third-round pick Maliek Collins, a defensive tackle from Nebraska. He is a penetrating tackle who will help the inside pass rush. He will end up being a steal.

Questionable move: Taking injured linebacker Jaylon Smith in the second round was a head shaker. He has nerve damage in his foot coming off a major knee injury. He probably won't play a down this year.

Third-day gem: Love the pick of quarterback Dak Prescott in the fourth round. They can develop him behind Tony Romo as a potential successor. Solid decision.

Analysis: I don't like taking backs high, so I ding the Cowboys for taking Ezekiel Elliott in the fourth spot, even if he's a good player. They also get two players -- Smith in the second and Prescott in the fourth -- who won't help right away. That's troubling. I did like some of their other picks, but not a great draft for me.

 

[p1_]

• Joe Jackson was a steal in the late fifth round
• Mike Weber should have never been available in the seventh.
• Jalen Jelks shouldn't have been available in the seventh either

Our DE room is so log jammed now that I'm sure a talented guy isn't going to make the roster.

Day Three was strong.

 

[Cotton]

 

[Cotton]

 

[boozeman]

Yeah didn't mean to imply you did. It was more a response to Schmitty.

Oh.

Anyhoo...here is the article.

https://cowboyswire.usatoday.com/2019/04/30/dallas-cowboys-2019-nfl-draft-pivotal-moves-trades-selections/

 

[boozeman]

From the sound of things, he was definitely their guy at that 4th round pick.

Doing the Dunbar thing again, but this time we have Goof Son dressing him up in thigh high stockings and a push up bra by suggesting Kamara in the same breath.

It is a pretty key pick. Taking him cost them the preferred corner that Richard wanted in Isaiah Johnson and a good DE in John Cominsky.

That pretty much set up the panicked trade downs.

This guy had better pan out for all the trouble and lost opportunities.

 

[Cowboysrock55]

From the sound of things, he was definitely their guy at that 4th round pick.

Doing the Dunbar thing again, but this time we have Goof Son dressing him up in thigh high stockings and a push up bra by suggesting Kamara in the same breath.

It is a pretty key pick. Taking him cost them the preferred corner that Richard wanted in Isaiah Johnson and a good DE in John Cominsky.

That pretty much set up the panicked trade downs.

This guy had better pan out for all the trouble and lost opportunities.

I don't think he is Dunbar. Dunbar was tiny. Like really tiny. 187 pounds tiny. Tony Pollard played at the Senior Bowl which tells you he at least had some talent. I think he even scored a TD in the game. Pollard also isn't undersized like Dunbar. He is 6 foot 210 pounds. So those comparison's aren't really accurate although I get that the way we intend to use him brings up memories of Dunbar. Of course he isn't Kamara either. And we will never use him as much as Kamara is used. He is somewhere in between.

We do have a little history of actually using Dunbar though. I think it was 2014 and 2015 where Romo actually threw to him a decent amount. We threw to Zeke a bunch last season. So if we use Pollard on those passes instead of Zeke the move could pay off. Zeke had 77 catches last year believe it or not. And if we could even move half of those onto Pollard it would probably take a good amount of a beating off of Zeke. The possibility is there. But we have to actually have the balls to pull Zeke off the field on third downs.

 

[Cotton]

McGovern:

 

[Smitty]

A graph is only as good as the data you're using. I don't really care what TD Wire says about our draft. Or the Miami Herald either frankly.

Ok, but you said "not sure about this 'consensus.'"

But it is the consensus. This is an amalgam of our grades across a very large number of graders. The data is in... most people have us near the bottom.

I think Simp is pretty spot on. A lot of these services ding you pretty heavily for not having a first rounder and give you major props when you have 2 first round players. And honestly it's probably not even fair to call them services. I doubt the dude for Miami Herald by the way is scouting 200 prospects in this draft. The Cowboys didn't start with a lot of draft capital because of Amari Cooper and winning too many games. So at a glance of course we got less than teams who had high first round picks.

Maybe.

But I'm sitting here saying, I don't get a great feeling about the haul we had, as a whole. Just my feeling. And it's not completely unsubstantiated; in fact, its more or less the consensus.

As far as your analysis of the day three picks I think we would just have to disagree. Joe Jackson was a steal in the late fifth almost sixth round and Weber should have never been available in the seventh. Frankly Jelks shouldn't have been either but our DE room is so log jammed now that I'm sure a talented guy isn't going to make the roster.

Yeah, I mean, we're gonna disagree.

This sounds to me like a lot of rationalization after the fact; its very similar to the narratives we hear every year about a guy like Ben Gardner or Dorance Armstrong or whoever.

And I'm not saying Joe Jackson sucks. But at the end of the day I am doubting he is a "second contract guy" or a "comp-pick when he signs elsewhere" guy (like Anthony Hitchens). I think this draft lacks the real quality you see to build a foundation. I guess we'll find out.

 

[Smitty]

Also while talking about draft grades our 2016 draft was stellar. Yet go back and look at the draft grades. We got a shit load of C grades. It was not a well liked draft by the same people you're talking about above.

Pete Prisco, CBS Sports: C- (Prisco's worst grade given)

Best pick: I love third-round pick Maliek Collins, a defensive tackle from Nebraska. He is a penetrating tackle who will help the inside pass rush. He will end up being a steal.

Questionable move: Taking injured linebacker Jaylon Smith in the second round was a head shaker. He has nerve damage in his foot coming off a major knee injury. He probably won't play a down this year.

Third-day gem: Love the pick of quarterback Dak Prescott in the fourth round. They can develop him behind Tony Romo as a potential successor. Solid decision.

Analysis: I don't like taking backs high, so I ding the Cowboys for taking Ezekiel Elliott in the fourth spot, even if he's a good player. They also get two players -- Smith in the second and Prescott in the fourth -- who won't help right away. That's troubling. I did like some of their other picks, but not a great draft for me.

FWIW, I liked the 2016 draft pretty much immediately. I don't have a similar chart to show what the composite grading was for our 2016 class, but I'd bet it isn't fourth from the bottom like this year.

 

[Smitty]

From the sound of things, he was definitely their guy at that 4th round pick.

Doing the Dunbar thing again, but this time we have Goof Son dressing him up in thigh high stockings and a push up bra by suggesting Kamara in the same breath.

It is a pretty key pick. Taking him cost them the preferred corner that Richard wanted in Isaiah Johnson and a good DE in John Cominsky.

That pretty much set up the panicked trade downs.

This guy had better pan out for all the trouble and lost opportunities.

Sounds like -- again -- they get fixated. It's like the the Donnell Pumphrey/Ryan Switzer thing in 2017. It was clear we wanted a gadget guy in the fourth round there, value at other positions be damned.

I kind of hate our mid round drafting strategy.

 

[Cowboysrock55]

And I'm not saying Joe Jackson sucks. But at the end of the day I am doubting he is a "second contract guy" or a "comp-pick when he signs elsewhere" guy (like Anthony Hitchens). I think this draft lacks the real quality you see to build a foundation. I guess we'll find out.

Funny you mention Hitchens because you all hated that pick. You say these guys are like Ben Gardner but why? Your gut? I mean give me something about there ability or scouting that makes them similar.