Cowboys at Lions | Week 8 Game Day Chatter Thread | 10/27/2013

[Smitty]

We overrate the negative effects of coaching in Dallas.

I strongly disagree.

Just like you underrate the negative effects of the coaching scenarios some of these guys took over. Marvin Lewis has had multiple nice seasons in Cincinnati. The one city that is basically a Dallas clone in terms of horrible managment. Schwartz took over an 0-16 team and built them into multiple playoff teams, including 2 games where he outcoached Garrett to stunning come from behind victories.

In 11 years, Lewis has been to the playoffs 4 times and never won a playoff game. I mean, I guess going 9-7 or 10-6 is "better" but to me, given that it's not with the negative weight of Jerry, I don't see a tangible difference. Lewis also has a couple of 4-12s in there and plenty of 8-8s and 7-9s.

I see absolutely no difference between him and Kubiak or Schwartz. You have to rank those guys, right, but if one is 15, one is 16, and one is 17, then I'm saying that's all really just a tie for 15.

I think Garrett is similarly placed. It's all more or less the same in that range.

 

[Simpleton]

Garrett is a solid 20-20 in 2.5 seasons of being the HC, that is consistent mediocrity, if this continues and we bumble to yet another 8-8 finish how can anybody defend him with some half-baked excuse of "well, can you show me who would be an upgrade?"

The fact of the matter is that Garrett would not be able to survive all this if he hadn't played here and had family connections in the organization, 3 years of 8-8, no matter the injury excuse or otherwise, is enough to fire a coach.

 

[mcnuttz]

 

[UncleMilti]

10-20?

There is absolutely no way you can say the guy is anywhere near being a top 10 coach nor even 12th or 13th.

He's more in the 25-32 range.

Garrett would be hard pressed to be anywhere near a top 25 coach in the NFL.

 

[Smitty]

Well, I'm just saying, when and if we fire Garrett, if I have to hear that we're looking at replacing him with Gary Kubiak or something, I foresee a lot of 2006 offseason-style arguments where I will be vehemently saying he's definitely not good enough to win here and the usual homer crowd saying he's better. Then two years down the line when the same problems plaguing us, we'll again be saying how we need a franchise-type head coach.

So we should probably just be aiming at that level now.

 

[Deuce]

Well, I'm just saying, when and if we fire Garrett, if I have to hear that we're looking at replacing him with Gary Kubiak or something, I foresee a lot of 2006 offseason-style arguments where I will be vehemently saying he's definitely not good enough to win here and the usual homer crowd saying he's better. Then two years down the line when the same problems plaguing us, we'll again be saying how we need a franchise-type head coach.

So we should probably just be aiming at that level now.

Right, because Kubiak wouldn't instantly attempt to fix a God awful run game and get the offense on track. Nobody would like that at all.

 

[Smitty]

Garrett would be hard pressed to be anywhere near a top 25 coach in the NFL.

Yeah, right. He's the worst coach in football, duh!

 

[Smitty]

Right, because Kubiak wouldn't instantly attempt to fix a God awful run game and get the offense on track. Nobody would like that at all.

I look forward to having this debate with you.

I'm gonna scoreboard you with Wade though. Just like he was gonna fix the defense, right?

And then when he got here, his history of failure as a head coach came through. Just like Kubiak's will.

 

[UncleMilti]

You have a point Smitty....I'm not sure if I'm board for having another retread HC come to Dallas. It would be nice to get outside the box and get a dynamic college coach, someone with a new perspective on everything.

Theres positives and negatives to that, just like there is with retreads like Gruden (count me as one not impressed with Gruden) or Cowher.

The HC position can be solved...the GM...well, not so much.

 

[Deuce]

Yeah, right. He's the worst coach in football, duh!

He might be the worst established coach in the league. 6 brand new guys make up coaches hired from this season or last just don't have enough to say yes or no on. Schiano is in that group time frame wise, but I feel comfortable calling him a huge bust at this point.

So him and probable Leslie Fraser are worse than Garrett, but everyone else not in the new guy category is at least on par with him.

 

[UncleMilti]

Yeah, right. He's the worst coach in football, duh!

I didn't say he's the worst....but there isn't a statistic you can show me to say he's a top 15 or top 20 HC in this league, period.

 

[Deuce]

I look forward to having this debate with you.

I'm gonna scoreboard you with Wade though. Just like he was gonna fix the defense, right?

And then when he got here, his history of failure as a head coach came through. Just like Kubiak's will.

So in a debate about Garrett v Kubiak, you're going to scoreboard me with Wade? I don't even know if I want to ask how you will pull that off.

 

[Smitty]

I didn't say he's the worst....but there isn't a statistic you can show me to say he's a top 15 or top 20 HC in this league, period.

There isn't a statistic you can show to say he's the worst either.

He's somewhere in the nebulous middle where statistics just can't show one way or the other.

 

[Smitty]

So in a debate about Garrett v Kubiak, you're going to scoreboard me with Wade? I don't even know if I want to ask how you will pull that off.

Uh, I said when Garrett is fired. So it would no longer be a Garrett v. Kubiak debate, it would be a "Should we hire Gary Kubiak to run this now head-coachless team" debate.

My vote will be no even if you take Garrett out of the equation. The scoreboarding part is that you don't hire head coaches with track records of not getting the job done, and Gary Kubiak has that in spades.

I don't buy this situational "we just need someone here who can fix the run game and he'll do that and so we'll be good to go" line of reasoning. You need a great head coach who is great at being a head coach. If you want a guy to fix one aspect of your offense, get a coordinator.

I wouldn't hire head coaches based on coordinator qualifications unless you think that their work as a coordinator demonstrates good head coaching acumen. We went the whole "lets hire this guy as a head coach because he's a good defensive coordinator and that's what we need" route with Wade and it failed, because we ignored his poor record as a head coach. The same would happen with Kubiak, because the biggest problem with this team is the rudder, and you need a guy who can fix that issue.

 

[Deuce]

Uh, I said when Garrett is fired. So it would no longer be a Garrett v. Kubiak debate, it would be a "Should we hire Gary Kubiak to run this now head-coachless team" debate.

My vote will be no even if you take Garrett out of the equation.

Ok, so in a debate about whether Kubiak is fit to run the team you're going to scoreboard me with Wade? I still don't see the comparison.

 

[Simpleton]

I also don't want any college coaches unless it's David Shaw, and just because he seems like he has an NFL demeanor and his teams play a very professional style of football, I don't want any of these bullshit spread option coaches in Dallas because they will be back in college 3-4 years later.

Shaw would be one of my top choices if we were to fire Garrett quite honestly, along with Greg Roman and of course Gruden just for kicks.

 

[Carp]

I just don't want Garrett as HC anymore....I don't need to rank the coaches to do so. I am all in on Gruden, although anyone would make me feel better about the team.

 

[Smitty]

Ok, so in a debate about whether Kubiak is fit to run the team you're going to scoreboard me with Wade? I still don't see the comparison.

Edited my post.

 

[UncleMilti]

There isn't a statistic you can show to say he's the worst either.

He's somewhere in the nebulous middle where statistics just can't show one way or the other.

 

[Deuce]

Edited my post.

Ok, and I agree with that part of the post. But, you're hiring one of 3 kinds of guys. Retread which you sound like you don't want, a former Coordinator who only has experience on one side of the ball which is sounds like you don't want and a college coach with HC experience which outside of Shaw I don't think anyone would want.

You can't have a guy with proven HC credentials who will "fix the whole team". Those guys are taken. So you hope to get a retread that can fix areas he's proven to fix at other places and hope it yields positive results.