Machota: Cowboys embarrassed at home - Zeke Elliott hurting offense, 9 other takeaways

[Cowboysrock55]

You must have forgotten how poor his passing numbers were. He struggled to move the ball in the air, on par with guys like Carter and Kaepernick. The numbers don't lie. For a good stretch of time, not just a couple games. Well over a season.

He had a real rough patch. I don't care about "but he won," because so did Kaepernick, who went to a Super Bowl. But the wheels eventually fell off because he couldn't consistently move the ball through the air. Dak had a good year and a half stretch where he was not a competent QB making plays in the air.

Luckily Dak is past it.

Um no I didn't forget. You clearly forget what Quincy's numbers looked like.

 

[Rev]

Come up with a better comparison. Daks worse year is significantly better than Carters best year.

 

[Smitty]

Um no I didn't forget. You clearly forget what Quincy's numbers looked like.

I know exactly what they look like. 209 and 206 ypg passing in 2002 and 2003, and a record of 13-11.

Dak averaged 207 ypg in 2017 and 202 ypg through the first 7 games of 2018, and put up a record of 12-11.

Dak threw less interceptions, so there's that.

But Dak had about a year and a half stretch where he was simply not very good.

Don't know why people try to deny it. Homerism, mostly.

A guy like Colin Kaepernick at his very mediocre prime was better than that year and a half stretch of Dak.

 

[Smitty]

Come up with a better comparison. Daks worse year is significantly better than Carters best year.

I dispute that, other than Carter's significantly higher interception rate.

But it's irrelevant because what I said, and it's indisputable, is

1) Dak was "closer," to Carter than he was a top 15 NFL QB, not that he was 1:1 with Quincy Carter, and

2) I already named another comparison, Colin Kaepernick.

 

[NoDak]

Just as funny how everyone else is still petrified of him.

Oh he was so mean! He hurt my feelings!

You are right. I for one am absolutely shaking in my boots.

 

[Simpleton]

I know exactly what they look like. 209 and 206 ypg passing in 2002 and 2003, and a record of 13-11.

Dak averaged 207 ypg in 2017 and 202 ypg through the first 7 games of 2018, and put up a record of 12-11.

Dak threw less interceptions, so there's that.

But Dak had about a year and a half stretch where he was simply not very good.

Don't know why people try to deny it. Homerism, mostly.

A guy like Colin Kaepernick at his very mediocre prime was better than that year and a half stretch of Dak.

Not playing well for a season with extenuating circumstances doesn't mean you're not a top 15 QB. At the end of 2017 would you have traded Prescott for Tyrod Taylor, Case Keenum, Andy Dalton or Blake Bortles?

Because that's what it would've taken for him to not be top 15, even in his worst year, and if you had then obviously it'd be a massive mistake.

Of course this ignores the fact that your role model never got off the shtick even years later once Dak clearly proved himself to be solidly in the top 10, and despite what you want to say about it, he uses the shtick as a means to further his arguments.

 

[Cowboysrock55]

I know exactly what they look like. 209 and 206 ypg passing in 2002 and 2003, and a record of 13-11.

Dak averaged 207 ypg in 2017 and 202 ypg through the first 7 games of 2018, and put up a record of 12-11.

Dak threw less interceptions, so there's that.

But Dak had about a year and a half stretch where he was simply not very good.

Don't know why people try to deny it. Homerism, mostly.

A guy like Colin Kaepernick at his very mediocre prime was better than that year and a half stretch of Dak.

You're smarter than this. TD/INT ratio is extremely important. And ignoring everything else like it doesn't exist is just stupid and you know it. Things like YPA and completion percentage. You know stats that actually matter? Quincy's best year the dude had 17 TDs passing. Dak's worst year he had 22. And don't get me started again on what a useless stat yards per game is.

I refuse to believe you are this dumb. You're either trying to defend your buddies stupid position or you're just feeling frisky today.

 

[Smitty]

Not playing well for a season with extenuating circumstances doesn't mean you're not a top 15 QB.

Putting up piddling passing stats and going 12-11 in nearly a season and a half absolutely means that.

At the end of 2017 would you have traded Prescott for Tyrod Taylor, Case Keenum, Andy Dalton or Blake Bortles?

What does that have to do with anything? I said he wasn't a top 15 QB, not that he was a career aging journeyman or washout.

Because that's what it would've taken for him to not be top 15

That's not true. But he was headed towards Kaepernick territory for sure.

Luckily the acquisition of Cooper seemed to click for him and he's significantly better right now.

Of course this ignores the fact that your role model never got off the shtick even years later once Dak clearly proved himself to be solidly in the top 10, and despite what you want to say about it, he uses the shtick as a means to further his arguments.

Ok. I'm not debating any of that. So what?

It's annoying and arguable but you seem to hold it as some sort of personal vendetta yourself.

 

[Simpleton]

What does that have to do with anything? I said he wasn't a top 15 QB, not that he was a career aging journeyman or washout.

Because that's how I look at QB's and their relative ranking, who I'd want for a certain time horizon. I wouldn't have traded Prescott for any of those guys even for a single season, let alone 3+. Going into 2018 he was pretty clearly in the top 15 guys I'd have taken even for just a year, which to me makes the most sense as far as ranking QB's, if you want to look at it differently go ahead.

Ok. I'm not debating any of that. So what?

It's annoying and arguable but you seem to hold it as some sort of personal vendetta yourself.

I literally haven't talked about SBK in like 10 years, what are you talking about?

People were talking about him in the thread and being that I've been around longer than almost everybody on this board I figured that I have one of the better memories of how he was, so I chimed in. Don't get so defensive just because you looked up to him 12 years ago.

 

[Cotton]

You are right. I for one am absolutely shaking in my boots.

Ain't nobody scared of that dickhead.

 

[Smitty]

You're smarter than this.

So are you.

TD/INT ratio is extremely important.

And his was comparable to Colin Kaepernick's, then.

Again, not saying Prescott was 1:1 Quincy Carter.

But he had flaws in his game that mirrored his game for that year and a half to Carter's "peak" of 2002-03, and also Kaepernick's "peak," of 2012-13-14.

Not being able to move the ball consistently in the air is a fatal flaw in today's league, and Dak really struggled with that for a bit. He was a young QB and got over it, but so were Carter and Kaepernick at those times and they never got over it. They subsequently washed out.

Prescott was headed that way like it or not come the halfway point of 2018.

But something clicked for him and now he's a top 10 QB.

And ignoring everything else like it doesn't exist is just stupid and you know it. Things like YPA and completion percentage. You know stats that actually matter? Quincy's best year the dude had 17 TDs passing. Dak's worst year he had 22. And don't get me started again on what a useless stat yards per game is.

It's not a useless stat, that has been debunked again and again. It's not relevant when comparing 260 ypg vs 290 ypg. It's extremely relevant if comparing 190 ypg vs. 250 ypg.

Dak was at 202 and 207. He was failing to pass the ball at a sufficient level.

YPA? In 2017, 6.5 for Dak. Terrible. The first 7 games of 2018? 6.7. Not good either. Quincy Carter in 2002-03? 6.6 and 6.5. Nearly identical.

Completion percentage? In 2017, 62%. Carter in 2003, 57%, but check their rankings (completion percentage has climbed league-wide over the years) - Prescott 13th, Carter 17th. Not far apart.

The one difference you've cited is TD:INT ratio, where Dak has always been good and Carter was terrible. Hence why I said this is not a 1:1 correlation, but that Prescott was merely "closer," to a Carter like performance than a top 15 NFL QB.

But take a look at Kaepernick's TD:INT ratio in 12-13. Very similar to Prescott's!

Kaepernick was a very similar player for a time to that year and a half of Prescott. Win some games, rely on strong run game/D, manage the offense, be efficient, but cannot win on his own arm. The league eventually figured him out and he was run out of town.

Prescott was nearly identical for a year and a half.

Then he developed and turned into a top 10 QB.

Don't know what's so hard about this.

You don't have a single stat or argument that refutes any of this.

Prescott was bad for a year and a half.

I also don't even know why you care. We all agree that he's much better now.

Just admit that he sucked in 2017-18 and we can move on. Every stat proves it.

 

[NoDak]

Kind of gives you an idea of how long we will have to hear about Garrett.

yeah, I suppose.

 

[Smitty]

Because that's how I look at QB's and their relative ranking, who I'd want for a certain time horizon. I wouldn't have traded Prescott for any of those guys even for a single season, let alone 3+. Going into 2018 he was pretty clearly in the top 15 guys I'd have taken even for just a year, which to me makes the most sense as far as ranking QB's, if you want to look at it differently go ahead.

Well that's your subjective take then.

The numbers don't lie as I just posted above, though. Passing yards per game, completion percentage, ypa, win-loss. The thing that Dak had in that year and a half over Carter (though not Kaepernick) was TD-INT ratio.

Dak was quite mediocre to even poor for a year and a half. He was not performing like a top 15 QB at all. Not even close.

Luckily he developed as it is reasonable to expect a 24 year old QB to do.

 

[Cowboysrock55]

Collin Kaepernick is a different conversation. In his best year he was one of the best QBs in the NFL. He went 12-4 and led his team to the Superbowl. It didn't last because he ran a gimmick system and the NFL caught up to him. We may be saying the same thing about a certain Ravens QB in the next couple years.

 

[mcnuttz]

It was me. And it wasn’t for hating Hicks. I only said he was overrated. I was the first to get banned, and when people stuck up for me saying that was a weak reason to ban somebody, they were banned, too. And it only picked up steam from there.

Rant was banned for the Taylor Hicks shit as well, if I recall correctly.

 

[Smitty]

Collin Kaepernick is a different conversation. In his best year he was one of the best QBs in the NFL. He went 12-4 and led his team to the Superbowl. It didn't last because he ran a gimmick system and the NFL caught up to him. We may be saying the same thing about a certain Ravens QB in the next couple years.

They ran a gimmick system because he sucked as an NFL level passer. He was never one of the best QBs in the NFL.

As did Prescott for a year and a half.

Thank god he's developed into more than that.

But it's why I say, accurately, that he was closer to Kaepernick and Carter (2002-03 Carter) than he was a top 15 NFL QB for that year and a half.

I think Lamar Jackson is better but I do agree, quite overrated, and that other shoe may drop soon.

 

[boozeman]

Rant was banned for the Taylor Hicks shit as well, if I recall correctly.

And where the fuck is Taylor Hicks now?

 

[Cotton]

So many words in this thread.

 

[mcnuttz]

The DCT where we met Hole in the Roof

That was @midswat , ya dumbass!

 

[Simpleton]

Well that's your subjective take then.

The numbers don't lie as I just posted above, though. Passing yards per game, completion percentage, ypa, win-loss. The thing that Dak had in that year and a half over Carter (though not Kaepernick) was TD-INT ratio.

Dak was quite mediocre to even poor for a year and a half. He was not performing like a top 15 QB at all. Not even close.

Luckily he developed as it is reasonable to expect a 24 year old QB to do.

And Kaepernick also had the benefit of being in an offense that was on the forefront of the RPO revolution taking the league by storm, having one of the best offensive designers in the game, and excellent overall infrastructure on both offense and defense.

As I said, earlier, you have to take into account the context and extenuating circumstances.