Morning After: Developments on the Offensive Line in Canton

[boozeman]

You want to talk about being proud, watch our second drive of the game with nine yards to go. It took us five plays to get it in...and it wasn't a slam dunk.

 

[Lotuseater]

You want to talk about being proud, watch our second drive of the game with nine yards to go. It took us five plays to get it in...and it wasn't a slam dunk.

Hey, I have no doubt that upon closer examination mistakes will be glaring. They always are, though. I am only proud because we finally managed to AT LEAST find 2 guys that have the strength physically to play the positions.

Small victories, Booze. Stacked one atop the other. Everyday.

 

[Smitty]

Frederick is a good fit, and as a 1st round pick he should be. Leary seems to be our LG, and I like him. Free is an accident waiting to happen.

But who is our fucking RG?! Bernadeau? Arkin??

THIS IS ABSURD.

It is, but imagine that absurdity was at all three spots last year. Four, actually, including tackle.

Hopefully with Frederick and Leary we've cut that number of liabilities in half.

 

[Smitty]

Feh.

It was one game against Miami schlubs. I liked what I saw out of Frederick, and Leary looked decent. But again, we were not facing their starting DL. Derrick Shelby, their version of George Selvie had a solid game.

Yeah, but our starting tackles were out from the 2nd drive onward and Parnell is hurt, even. We know the other tackles are garbage.

And Leary and Frederick looked good while they were in there, so it was on the other guys.

 

[boozeman]

Yeah, but our starting tackles were out from the 2nd drive onward and Parnell is hurt, even. We know the other tackles are garbage.

And Leary and Frederick looked good while they were in there, so it was on the other guys.

And Miami had their DE schlubs in by that point too.

The best thing Frederick did was get to the LBers quickly. That was something Costa often struggled to do.

 

[Smitty]

FWIW, I was going back and watching some draft coverage on youtube, and it's just ridiculously shocking how many people said "I don't know anything about this guy!"

I'm not talking the guys actually on the draft coverage shows like Mayock, Kiper, etc. They all obviously did.

But like the "day after" guys. Guys like Skip Bayless and Steven A. Smith coming on and saying how they are "draftniks" but know nothing about him. Um.... then you aren't a draftnik. Frederick was a 2nd round prospect in the majority of draft sources. Saw a video by that guy Shango too, he's another one, pretends he's a fan and then says how he spent all this time studying for the draft but "knew nothing about Frederick." Uh, then what the hell was he studying? Did he skip over the part about the 2nd round? Cause that's where Frederick was found more often than not.

I can't help but feel that if the Steelers or Patriots or a team with cred had made that pick, it'd be getting lauded. His stock would have been evaluated as solid-2nd and then the media would have given the benefit of the doubt to the Pats or Steelers and said "They always get these guys to perform, this will end up being a steal, the Pats saw something in this guy." People would be saying "This is a Max Unger type guy, he was a 2nd round pick, but he's turned into a first round caliber player, Frederick will be the same, the Pats were smart to overdraft him a little here."

The Cowboys have no cred so I feel like the media played up the reach aspect instead. All of a sudden, he was a "third or fourth round pick" as if he was a Quincy Carter type reach. All of a sudden, "some GMs didn't even have him on their board." What??!?! Yeah, maybe like the Cowboys take players off their board for not fitting their scheme.

Frederick will be fine. Sorry, just had to rant there.

 

[Smitty]

And Miami had their DE schlubs in by that point too.

The best thing Frederick did was get to the LBers quickly. That was something Costa often struggled to do.

I thought the best thing he did was never let the pocket collapse while at center. I was re-watching some of the game at lunch too, he blew some guys off the ball in the run game too. He's gonna be good.

 

[NoDak]

And Miami had their DE schlubs in by that point too.

The best thing Frederick did was get to the LBers quickly. That was something Costa often struggled to do.

I thought Dion Jordan played quite a bit?

 

[boozeman]

I thought Dion Jordan played quite a bit?

He did at RDE. We did not run off tackle much. Much of what we did was predicated on the interior...specifically Frederick.

 

[gator]

FWIW, I was going back and watching some draft coverage on youtube, and it's just ridiculously shocking how many people said "I don't know anything about this guy!"

I'm not talking the guys actually on the draft coverage shows like Mayock, Kiper, etc. They all obviously did.

But like the "day after" guys. Guys like Skip Bayless and Steven A. Smith coming on and saying how they are "draftniks" but know nothing about him. Um.... then you aren't a draftnik. Frederick was a 2nd round prospect in the majority of draft sources. Saw a video by that guy Shango too, he's another one, pretends he's a fan and then says how he spent all this time studying for the draft but "knew nothing about Frederick." Uh, then what the hell was he studying? Did he skip over the part about the 2nd round? Cause that's where Frederick was found more often than not.

I can't help but feel that if the Steelers or Patriots or a team with cred had made that pick, it'd be getting lauded. His stock would have been evaluated as solid-2nd and then the media would have given the benefit of the doubt to the Pats or Steelers and said "They always get these guys to perform, this will end up being a steal, the Pats saw something in this guy." People would be saying "This is a Max Unger type guy, he was a 2nd round pick, but he's turned into a first round caliber player, Frederick will be the same, the Pats were smart to overdraft him a little here."

The Cowboys have no cred so I feel like the media played up the reach aspect instead. All of a sudden, he was a "third or fourth round pick" as if he was a Quincy Carter type reach. All of a sudden, "some GMs didn't even have him on their board." What??!?! Yeah, maybe like the Cowboys take players off their board for not fitting their scheme.

Frederick will be fine. Sorry, just had to rant there.

We don't deserve the benefit of the doubt with any draft pick. Most writers don't know shit about most incoming rookies, and it's easy for them to sensationalize to promote that Jerry reached for another draft pick.

Until the hierarchy changes in Dallas it's easy to be lazy and write that any draft pick they make is a reach. No one re-grades the their analysis after year 3 anyway.

 

[Simpleton]

The Mankins pick was very similar to our pick, an interior OL expected to go in the 2nd-3rd area going in the late 1st.

If we had taken Floyd at 18 Frederick was literally my first choice at 47 so I was fine with him at 31 from the start. I think the whole pick being a reach thing took on a life of it's own, he was generally thought of as a mid 2nd to early 3rd but a few draftniks claimed he was a 3rd-4th rounder and that became the narrative, that he was a 3rd-4th rounder.

 

[Smitty]

The Mankins pick was very similar to our pick, an interior OL expected to go in the 2nd-3rd area going in the late 1st.

I knew there was an example I was missing; you nailed it. I kept thinking Mangold but I knew that wasn't it.

If we had taken Floyd at 18 Frederick was literally my first choice at 47 so I was fine with him at 31 from the start.

I don't know if Frederick was my "first choice" at 47 heading into the draft, but the player that I would have wanted would have been to see a higher rated player fall to that spot, like Matt Elam or something. That didn't happen, obviously. I know I would have been very happy with Frederick at 47.

I think the whole pick being a reach thing took on a life of it's own, he was generally thought of as a mid 2nd to early 3rd but a few draftniks claimed he was a 3rd-4th rounder and that became the narrative, that he was a 3rd-4th rounder.

Yeah, exactly. I think it got blown way out of proportion. Like I said, this was a "Logan Mankins" type end of the first round reach. The guy was a 2nd round stock, but a very favorable 2nd round stock, and when someone took him in the first it was surprising but something you can also see panning out, especially now that there is a precedent for it. If the Pats had done it, they'd be getting lauded for being smarter than everyone else.

I'm not one to give Jerry credit but I do not think this pick was bad.

 

[junk]

I liked Frederick coming out. I'm not sure if I liked the strategy on draft day since it seemed very seat of the pants. Floyd and his 5 sacks or whatever didn't really impress me, but if he is the number 5 guy on your board, you don't decide on draft day he isn't a scheme fit.

I was high on Frederick early and cooled a bit though as he was glacial in his running drills if I remember correctly. Not that OL have to be the most nimble and athletic, but he seemed really bad.

Lots to like though.....strong, smart and a leader. The line needs someone with some brains and leadership. Too bad we have to count on a rookie for it.

 

[ravidubey]

Frederick will be fine. Sorry, just had to rant there.

I guess if Dallas had not landed the extra 3rd round pick and just stayed pat and and drafted their 2nd round prospect exactly like New York and Chicago did, everything would have been fine. :

I've never seen a bigger circle-jerk in draft coverage than the media bukake over the Frederick pick. Supposed pundits were absolutely losing their shit about Frederick when he's the same grade of player as Pugh and Lang. Dallas got him 11 picks later and received an extra 3rd round pick.

Nobody questioned when New York and Chicago reached.

Jerry Jones' lack of cred combined with everybody's need to be an expert created a ridiculous fiasco. We need Frederick. The only problem I have is we needed more line (OL or DL) help in the 2nd round and ended up with Escobar.

 

[ravidubey]

NFL.com grades:

Travis Frederick - 78.7
Kyle Long - 77.0
Justin Pugh - 73.0

 

[Simpleton]

I guess if Dallas had not landed the extra 3rd round pick and just stayed pat and and drafted their 2nd round prospect exactly like New York and Chicago did, everything would have been fine. :

I've never seen a bigger circle-jerk in draft coverage than the media bukake over the Frederick pick. Supposed pundits were absolutely losing their shit about Frederick when he's the same grade of player as Pugh and Lang. Dallas got him 11 picks later and received an extra 3rd round pick.

Nobody questioned when New York and Chicago reached.

Jerry Jones' lack of cred combined with everybody's need to be an expert created a ridiculous fiasco. We need Frederick. The only problem I have is we needed more line (OL or DL) help in the 2nd round and ended up with Escobar.

I 100% agree with all of this.

 

[Smitty]

NFL.com grades:

Travis Frederick - 78.7
Kyle Long - 77.0
Justin Pugh - 73.0

I personally would have ranked Pugh higher than Frederick; Long would have come significantly after Frederick though.

I would have said Pugh was a late 1st/Early 2nd. Frederick I would have said was a mid-2nd. Long I did not like, would have put him in the third.

 

[Smitty]

http://www.dallasnews.com/sports/dallas-cowboys/headlines/20130425-a-conundrum-new-cowboy-travis-frederick-looked-awful-in-workouts-but-plays-well.ece

Article written after the draft, but these things were said before the draft:

“Yes, the workout did expose him,” said an AFC personnel man. “His feet are so (expletive) slow. He’s beginning to scare me the more I watch him. Before, I had him 25 to 40. There’s no way he goes first round now.”

......

“His workouts were horrible, but I just don’t think it’s that big of a deal,” another AFC personnel director said. “He needs to quit losing weight and be a 335-pound Wisconsin guy. He’s talented. He’s going to start and be a good pro.”

Last season, Atlanta general manager Thomas Dimitroff used a second-round pick for what he hopes will be his center for the next decade in Wisconsin’s Peter Konz. He watched Frederick as the left guard in 2011 and at center last season, and is convinced he moves well enough to succeed.

“Sure he can,” said Dimitroff. “This guy is an urgent, aggressive, tough guy. He is adept and alert inside in a small area. He has really good feel for it.”

“Wisconsin guys have played well in the league,” an AFC personnel man said. “Frederick can play center, but I think he’s going to play guard. I think he’s a second-round pick, but he may go in the back end of the first because there’s not that many centers.”

Plenty of flak about him being in the back end of the first in a best case scenario, more likely the 2nd. That first quote only downgraded because of a workout, which as we know, is stupid, especially when that workout was a bad 40 time for a center who will never be asked to run 40 yards.

 

[Cowboysrock55]

I personally would have ranked Pugh higher than Frederick; Long would have come significantly after Frederick though.

I would have said Pugh was a late 1st/Early 2nd. Frederick I would have said was a mid-2nd. Long I did not like, would have put him in the third.

Didn't like Pugh then or now. I much preferred Frederick over him and I think over the course of their careers that will show. Plus Pugh to me is more of a finesse blocker and I am tired of having those guys fill the majority of our O-line. I wanted more of a mauling type and that's what Frederick gives you.

 

[Simpleton]

I posted this during the draft, like smitty is saying, it wasn't all negative.

National Football Post's Russ Lande writes that Wisconsin C Travis Frederick has the tools to be a starting center.

"An added bonus is that unlike many center prospects who enter the NFL as "center only" prospects, Frederick has the size, playing strength, good athleticism and experience playing guard (He started in 2011 at guard alongside center Peter Konz) to be viewed as a center/guard prospect who can start at either spot in the NFL," Lande writes. "Overall, I believe that Frederick’s selection will not get much publicity and may even be criticized due to his poor 40 time, but two years from now when he is a good starting center or guard in the NFL he will start to receive the positive publicity his on field play has always warranted."

Sources tell draft insider Tony Pauline that Wisconsin G Travis Frederick could be a surprise first-round selection.
"One general manager has referred to Frederick as the best interior run blocking line(man) the draft has witnessed in more than a half-decade," Pauline writes. He continues to cite other sources that suggest the Colts or the Falcons as possible destinations. Pauline expects Frederick to weigh in around 315 pounds at the Combine.

Former Wisconsin head coach Bret Bielema said junior C Travis Frederick is "pound for pound one of the strongest I have ever coached."

Bielema added that Frederick is a better pass protector than John Moffit. Frederick became the second Badger center to leave after his junior season in two seasons. He may end up as a first-round pick, but expect Frederick to be gone by the middle of the second-round.