Expert Witness: Trayvon Martin was on top of Zimmerman when teen was shot

[Cotton]

That's because your reasoning was retarded.

k

 

[Cotton]

Blah Blah Blah... no one knows, so all of this speculation is just conjecture and, honestly, boring.

 

[Jiggyfly]

I like how if you interpret evidence a certain way you are biased. Good one Jiggy. Classic baiting. The funny part is that you are clearly choosing to believe mere speculation over the actual reliable evidence presented at trial (like that pesky witness who corroborated Zimmerman's testimony). THAT sounds like bias to me.

Truth is, I originally supported Martin's side of things based on media reports. But the trial evidence swayed my opinion precisely because I'm not biased. And that makes it pretty clear that Martin escalated the confrontation into violence.

You have been pretty absolute in your interpretations like continually saying Martin was the aggressor, that's a sure sign of bias.

There was no evidence shown that Martin escalated anything the only thing borne out of the case is that Martin kicked Zimmerman ass.

So in your mind if you are seen on top for a couple of seconds in a fight you are the aggressor? oh yeah and that same pesky witness also said he did not see any blows being thrown.

Its amazing the things people want to run with in this case as some absolute to what happened and that's from both sides.

 

[Jiggyfly]

I suppose you don't, though.

Do you see me in here talking in absolutes.

Tell us again about the stolen skittles and how that has a bearing on this discussion.

 

[UncleMilti]

By the way, the real question in this case is if Zimmerman's life was really at risk. Just because you punch someone doesn't give them the right to use deadly force. Zimmerman may be guilty but there just isn't enough evidence to demonstrate that fact.

That is probably the biggest problem with the SYG law. It doesn't state specifically where your rights to use deadly force actually start...only that you have no duty to retreat, meet force with force, or use deadly force if you feel your life is in danger. Very convoluted.

 

[Jiggyfly]

You're correct. It's not just that he believed he was in danger of death or severe bodily harm, that belief has to also be reasonable which is what I was getting at. Without knowing exactly what happened it is hard to say whether his belief was reasonable. I think Zimmerman was in fear of sever bodily harm, otherwise he would have shot him much earlier and not waited to be tackled to the ground. I think where the debate should take place is weather his fear of death or severe bodily harm was reasonable.

That was what the case hinged on, and the Defense did a great job stating there position, the prosecution could not present a compelling position of there own.

 

[UncleMilti]

You have been pretty absolute in your interpretations like continually saying Martin was the aggressor, that's a sure sign of bias.

There was no evidence shown that Martin escalated anything the only thing borne out of the case is that Martin kicked Zimmerman ass.

So in your mind if you are seen on top for a couple of seconds in a fight you are the aggressor? oh yeah and that same pesky witness also said he did not see any blows being thrown.

Its amazing the things people want to run with in this case as some absolute to what happened and that's from both sides.

Actually you are wrong...the prosecutions witness TESTIFIED he saw Martin in a "ground and pound" position.

Ground and pound is basically holding someone down throwing punches at their head.
Did you watch the trial?

 

[Jiggyfly]

Actually you are wrong...the prosecutions witness TESTIFIED he saw Martin in a "ground and pound" position.

Ground and pound is basically holding someone down throwing punches at their head.
Did you watch the trial?

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57591520-504083/george-zimmerman-trial-neighbor-testifies-trayvon-martin-was-straddling-zimmerman-moments-before-fatal-gunshot/


Yes I did

John Good testified he saw a man in dark clothing on top of a man who was wearing red or light-colored clothing with lighter skin. Zimmerman, 29, was wearing a red jacket the night of the altercation, and Martin was wearing a dark hoodie. However, Good testified that he didn't see the person on top smashing the other person's head into the sidewalk, as Zimmerman claims Martin did before he fatally shot the teen

The altercation seemed to escalate, according to Good. The struggle moved to the cement pathway, and he said the person in dark clothing straddled the other man in "mixed martial arts position" he later described to police as a "ground and pound." He said he saw "arm movements going downward," though he couldn't be certain the person on top was striking the person on the bottom.

I think mister Good went a little overboard with the ground and pound stuff.

Later, prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda asked whether it was possible a police officer could have used the term "ground and pound" before he did.

"It's possible," Good said.

De la Rionda honed in on Good's earlier statement that he couldn't confirm the person on top was hitting the other person.

"Correct," Good said.

I was wrong about seeing no blows being thrown, but he backed off his initial statement of seeing a beating going on.

 

[Genghis Khan]

You have been pretty absolute in your interpretations like continually saying Martin was the aggressor, that's a sure sign of bias.

There was no evidence shown that Martin escalated anything the only thing borne out of the case is that Martin kicked Zimmerman ass.

So in your mind if you are seen on top for a couple of seconds in a fight you are the aggressor? oh yeah and that same pesky witness also said he did not see any blows being thrown.

Its amazing the things people want to run with in this case as some absolute to what happened and that's from both sides.

Being absolute is a sure sign of bias? I guess if I am absolutely sure that 1+1=2 I am biased against all the other numbers?

I actually don't think I've been that absolute on anything unwarranted but I suppose it rubs you the wrong way for me to believe the most reliable evidence out there is it doesn't align with your biased opinion.

It's funny the one screaming bias the loudest is eliciting the most bias of anyone.

What the hell would I have to be biased about? I couldn't care less about these people. As I said I've changed my position on the case which is actually a sure sign of not being biased.

 

[boozeman]

If there is anything worse than rehashing this shit, it is jiggy coming late to the party and wanting to debate it.

 

[Carp]

One thing though...Zimmerman proved to be a power bottom.

 

[UncleMilti]

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57591520-504083/george-zimmerman-trial-neighbor-testifies-trayvon-martin-was-straddling-zimmerman-moments-before-fatal-gunshot/


Yes I did





I think mister Good went a little overboard with the ground and pound stuff.




I was wrong about seeing no blows being thrown, but he backed off his initial statement of seeing a beating going on.

Spin it how you want....he was the PROSECUTION'S witness and testified to seeing Martin on top, in the MMA position. De la Rionda was caught with his dick out and desperately tried to discredit his OWN witness.

 

[boozeman]

Worst. Prosecution. Ever.

But the attacks on the jurors' integrity is next.

Just watch.

 

[boozeman]

Zimmerman Juror: 'I Have No Doubt George Feared for His Life'

CNN

Abby Ohlheiser 934 Views 9:24 PM ET


One of the six jurors who decided to acquit George Zimmerman of the charges against him for the shooting death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin spoke to Anderson Cooper on Monday evening. In short, the juror more or less completely believed Zimmerman's version of events. It was Zimmerman's voice screaming for help heard over the 911 call, she told Cooper. And she does not believe that race played a role in Zimmerman's assessment of Martin. Overall, her take on Zimmerman himself was very sympathetic.

Juror B37 sat across from Anderson Cooper, with her face in darkness. She told Cooper that she hadn't been following the trial, or story, "at all" before become one of the six jurors in the trial. During her interview, she referred to George Zimmerman as "George," and Trayvon Martin as "Trayvon." Overall, she found the evidence presented more interesting than the testimony.

The first vote during deliberations among the 6-woman jury on the verdict, the juror said, was 3 not guilty; 2 manslaughter; 1 second-degree murder. The juror was one of the three not guilty votes. The juror said that she initially found the law surrounding the case "very confusing," specifically referring to the last-minute addition of manslaughter to the charges they were to consider against Zimmerman. "there was a couple in there who wanted to find him guilty of something," she said, but that neither of the options on the table, second-degree murder or manslaughter, were feasibly options given the way they read state law.

According to Anderson Cooper, Juror B37 is the one who has already lined up a book deal. He clarified that CNN did not pay for the interview.

Here's a round-up of her thoughts on some of the most notable parts of the trial:

Defense Attorney Don West's opening joke was "horrible:"

According to Juror B37, the joke "was horrible. Nobody got it. I didn't get it, till later....I guess that could have been funny, but not in the context that he told hit."

Credible witnesses came from the defense:

The defense's medical examiner was the most credible witness, in her opinion, he was "awe inspiring" because of the "experiences he had over in the war." That witness, whom she didn't identify by name, might have been Vincent DiMaio, who formerly served in the U.S. Army Medical Corps. He testified that Zimmerman was under Martin when he fired his gun into the unarmed teenager. But: based on her description of his testimony (she referenced him identifying Zimmerman's scream on the 911 call), Cooper thought she might have been talking about Zimmerman's friend, a Vietnam vet who testified. She clarified that it was the medical examiner.

Chris Serino, the lead investigator in the case, was also someone she found credible. His statement that he found Zimmerman's account to be overall truthful made a "big" impression on her, because, she said, that's part of his job. The judge later asked the jury to ignore the exchange leading to Serino's assessment of Zimmerman's veracity.

911 Tapes: She heard Zimmerman's voice screaming for help:

She was most convinced by the Lauer tape, which captured the whole thing. "I think it was George Zimmerman's" voice on the tape screaming for help, she said, because of the cuts and abrasions on his body after the incident, and because of one witness account identifying Zimmerman as at the bottom of the scuffle between Zimmerman and Martin. She believes that all but one juror thought it was Zimmerman's voice on the tape.



Rachel Jeantel:

"I didn't think it was very credible, but I felt sorry for her. She didn't ask for this... I think she felt inadequate towards everyone because of her education and her communication skills. I just felt sadness for her...she just wasn't a good witness." The juror found it hard to understand what she was saying "a lot of the time" because she was "using phrases I have never heard before, and what they meant." She thinks Trayvon probably said "creepy ass cracker," which she didn't think it was racial, just every day life "for the type of life that they live."



Of her testimony, she thought her account of the phone call was the most important aspect.

Zimmerman's Motivation and Guilt:

"I think George Zimmerman is a man whose heart was in the right place," the juror told Cooper, "but just got displaced by the vandalism in the neighborhoods. [He] wanted to catch these people so badly that he went above and beyond what he should have done...it just went terribly wrong." Cooper then asked her if she thought Zimmerman was guilty of anything: "I think he's guilty of not using good judgement...he shouldn't have gotten out of that car," but she thinks that the 911 operator "egged him on." "I think it's everybody's right to carry a gun."

She thought that Martin may have reached for the gun, but couldn't say for sure. She believes, however, that Zimmerman thought he was reaching for the gun, meaning that "George had a right to protect himself at that point." The juror believes that Martin threw the first punch. "I have no doubt George feared for his life," she told Cooper.

As far as who was at fault, the juror thinks that "George got in a little too deep," initially as the aggressor, by approaching Martin, but then their roles changed. She believes that "Trayvon got mad and attacked him." She added that nobody on the jury felt they knew exactly what happened, but that the more credible witnesses told Zimmerman's version of events.

"He's overeager to help people," was the juror's overall take on Zimmerman, citing testimony from defense witnesses. "You have to have a heart...to help people." She didn't buy the prosecution's take that he was a "wannabe cop." In response to a question, she said that she'd want Zimmerman in her neighborhood as a neighborhood watch leader so long as he "didn't go to far...I would feel comfortable having George, because I think he's learned a good lesson" from the shooting death of Trayvon Martin.

As for whether George Zimmerman should get back his gun, the juror said that "I think he'd be more responsible than any one else on this planet" right now.

On Martin's, Zimmerman's parents:

Agreeing with Cooper, the juror said that their testimony essentially cancelled each other out, because they both couldn't hear anything other than their kid screaming for help. "You want to believe that they're innocent," she said.

On race:

The juror did not believe that race played a role in Zimmerman's assessment of Martin. She thought it was probably the circumstances of the robberies in the neighborhood, that Zimmerman may have reacted the "exact same way" to anyone doing what Trayvon did, no matter their race. "Anybody walking down the road stopping and turning and looking...is suspicious." She said that none of the jurors thought that race played a role. They did not discuss racial profiling as part of the case. "I saw it as a murder case," she said.

After the final vote, the juror said, as she broke into tears during the interview, "that's when everybody started to cry," she said. "It's just hard, thinking that somebody lost their life...it's a tragedy this happened." She added: "I think both of them could have walked away. It just didn't happen...I feel sorry for both of them." "We thought about it for hours," she said of the verdict. "And cried over it." According to Cooper, the juror never wants to be on a jury again.

 

[Deuce]

Worst. Prosecution. Ever.

But the attacks on the jurors' integrity is next.

Just watch.

I think Roddy White telling them to kill themselves kicked off that parade.

 

[Jiggyfly]

If there is anything worse than rehashing this shit, it is jiggy coming late to the party and wanting to debate it.

I really wanted to stay out of this and the discussion was reasonable so I dipped a toe in.


And its not like we have a whole hell of a lot else to talk about.

 

[Jiggyfly]

Worst. Prosecution. Ever.

But the attacks on the jurors' integrity is next.

Just watch.

I think the prosecution gets most of the attacks, the jury followed the instructions given them, there was definite reasonable doubt.

 

[Smitty]

k

You should point out how he's being a douche.

 

[Smitty]

Do you see me in here talking in absolutes.

Tell us again about the stolen skittles and how that has a bearing on this discussion.

I admitted I was wrong about that. Your turn.

 

[Smitty]

That is probably the biggest problem with the SYG law. It doesn't state specifically where your rights to use deadly force actually start...only that you have no duty to retreat, meet force with force, or use deadly force if you feel your life is in danger. Very convoluted.

Well, it is my understanding that other law governs when the right to use deadly force in self-defense kicks in.

All "Stand Your Ground" means is that it abrogates the general duty to retreat until cornered before using deadly force. In Zimmerman's case, he was pinned on the ground. Stand Your Ground ended up being completely inapplicable in this case and not at issue. The defense did not bring it up at trial and now you have a bunch of people running around saying how "Stand Your Ground" laws allow people to pick fights and then shoot someone when they are losing.

Untrue. Stand Your Ground laws don't do that. It's the general theories of self-defense which have been around for ages which "allow" that. And they don't actually allow it because a person who ACTUALLY starts a fight may not resort to such force. Yet another thing these people are misunderstanding.... their confusion is that they think Zimmerman started the fight. There is no evidence that he did so.