Expert Witness: Trayvon Martin was on top of Zimmerman when teen was shot

[2233boys]

You are allowed to use deadly force to stop serious injury.



Depends on what he believed, though.

Doesn't his fear have to be reasonable?

No broken bones no stitches, yeah the guy was seriously injured. He over reacted and killed an unarmed kid. He initiated the confrontation because he had a gun. If he would have done what he was told by the dispatcher none of this happens. If he wasn't carrying his gun none of this happens because he wouldn't have followed him on foot. A boy walking to his fathers house was harassed and killed by a man who got scared when he was getting beat up.

 

[2233boys]

What makes you think they would be accepting of the court's decision if he were acquitted?

They called for peace in a press conference no matter the outcome. I can totally see them filing a civil suit on Zimmerman for wrongful death.

 

[Smitty]

We don't know that it happened at all.

We don't know that it happened, that's what the trial is for... to determine what we think happened based on what was said.

I didn't say that Smitty try again.

You said he initiated the confrontation by following him.

Thats not initiating a confrontation. Not anymore than calling someone a name.

 

[NoDak]

A boy walking to his fathers house was harassed and killed by a man who got scared when he was getting beat up.

You've been saying quite a few times "We don't know that", and expect people to buy it. So how do you know this to be true?

 

[2233boys]

We don't know that it happened, that's what the trial is for... to determine what we think happened based on what was said.



You said he initiated the confrontation by following him.

Thats not initiating a confrontation. Not anymore than calling someone a name.

Yeah ok, sure it isn't.

 

[Carp]

Zimmerman listens to the dispatcher and none of this happens...pretty simple.

 

[2233boys]

You've been saying quite a few times "We don't know that", and expect people to buy it. So how do you know this to be true?

It was his fathers neighbor and that is where he was headed, would you have us believe he was casing houses or something? Of course we can't know for sure because he was shot and killed.

 

[2233boys]

Zimmerman listens to the dispatcher and none of this happens...pretty simple.

Truth

 

[Smitty]

Doesn't his fear have to be reasonable?

Getting your head bashed against concrete makes it reasonable.

No broken bones no stitches, yeah the guy was seriously injured.

He doesn't have to be seriously injured, he has to believe he's in danger of serious injury. Getting your head smashed against the concrete, or seeing Martin reach for the gun, all establish that belief.

Maybe you don't believe Zimmerman, but that's a different matter. You keep saying he overreacted but I haven't heard the alternative to what you think happened. So you are saying that Martin didn't reach for Zimmerman's gun? And what are you basing that on?

He initiated the confrontation because he had a gun.

You keep saying that, but it's not true. He followed Martin. Following someone isn't initiating a confrontation. Are you saying that Zimmerman threw the first punch? What are you basing that on?

If he would have done what he was told by the dispatcher none of this happens.

And that makes Zimmerman a profiler. Not a murderer. Guilty of profiling doesn't make him guilty of murder.

A boy walking to his fathers house was harassed and killed by a man who got scared when he was getting beat up.

If the boy hadn't beaten him up, he wouldn't have gotten killed. Too bad that the boy decided to initiate a confrontation that night.

 

[Smitty]

Zimmerman listens to the dispatcher and none of this happens...pretty simple.

I agree but that's not enough to convict.

 

[boozeman]

I agree but that's not enough to convict.

From my limited knowledge of this case and what I understand, Manslaughter would be appropriate. Murder? Please.

 

[NoDak]

It was his fathers neighbor and that is where he was headed, would you have us believe he was casing houses or something? Of course we can't know for sure because he was shot and killed.

I was talking about the last part of your comment.

But speaking of Martin heading to his dad's house, why didn't he run home? Especially since it is known that he actually lost Zimmerman for a bit. If he was so scared of the creepy ass cracka, why not run away and head home, especially since he had gotten away already? Why wait around or circle back to confront?

 

[EZ22]

Zimmerman listens to the dispatcher and none of this happens...pretty simple.

I agree. He brought this all on himself. I don't think he had intent to murder, but he's at least guilty of manslaughter.

 

[Smitty]

From my limited knowledge of this case and what I understand, Manslaughter would be appropriate. Murder? Please.

If the jury believes Zimmerman was defending himself than manslaughter is not even appropriate. The wrong of profiling and following Martin doesn't eliminate Zimmerman's deadly force self-defense when (if) Martin jumped him.

Manslaughter is when you recklessly kill someone. Am I to believe that pulling out a gun and shooting someone when you are getting your head bashed in, or when the attacker is reaching for the gun themselves, is reckless? If you are saying that Zimmerman was getting his head smashed in, but is still guilty of manslaughter, you are saying under the law that it is reckless to shoot someone when you are in fear of serious injury. But I don't believe that's reckless, I believe that's justified.

IMO People want to convict Zimmerman for wrongfully setting in motion a chain of events that led to Martin's death, but which Martin himself had a hand in acting wrongfully. They want the "reckless" part to be how Zimmerman was following and profiling Martin, but all that is cut off from the second that Martin jumps him (if he did indeed do that).

Now, the jury can do whatever they damn well please, they don't have to explain how they arrived at their decision. They can convict Zimmerman of manslaughter to "punish" him for following Martin even if they believe Zimmerman's story that he was in fear of his life. The jury doesn't have to explain their actions. But if they followed the law, and they believe Zimmerman's story, he would be acquitted of both charges.

It depends on what you believe happened. I haven't heard any evidence that leads me to believe Zimmerman threw the first punch, or that he was on top in the struggle. All the other stuff is completely irrelevant when it comes to the murder or manslaughter charge.

The Prosecution's argument has been that, Zimmerman is lying. Zimmerman threw the first punch and Zimmerman was on top, it was Martin that was crying out for help.

Their argument for those things, though, has been pretty well disproven. See the original post in this article, there is just no way that Zimmerman was on top.

So if he gets convicted, it's because the jury wants to punish him for following Martin. Which would be wrong to convict him for.

 

[2233boys]

Getting your head bashed against concrete makes it reasonable.

I don't think it was reasonable for him to believe his life was in danger. I believe like Trayvon he over reacted and shot and killed someone.

He doesn't have to be seriously injured, he has to believe he's in danger of serious injury. Getting your head smashed against the concrete, or seeing Martin reach for the gun, all establish that belief.

We don't know Trayvon was reaching for his gun. He required no stitches had no concussion, I seriously question the bashing his head against a sidewalk story,

Maybe you don't believe Zimmerman, but that's a different matter. You keep saying he overreacted but I haven't heard the alternative to what you think happened. So you are saying that Martin didn't reach for Zimmerman's gun? And what are you basing that off?

It doesn't make sense. If Martin was in a dominate position as is being portrayed how couldn't he have had the upper hand in getting the gun if he was in fact reaching for it. I think he got scared and instead of fighting back he shot and killed an unarmed kid.

You keep saying that, but it's not true. He followed Martin. Following someone isn't initiating a confrontation. Are you saying that Zimmerman threw the first punch? What are you basing that on?

He would have never followed him had he not had a gun. Maybe a better word would be instigated the incident.

And that makes Zimmerman a profiler. Not a murderer. Guilty of profiling doesn't make him guilty of murder.

didn't say he should be convicted of murder

If the boy hadn't beaten him up, he wouldn't have gotten killed. Too bad that the boy decided to initiate a confrontation that night.

yeah the adult who had guidelines of not carrying a weapon when he was on patrol and was told by police dispatchers to stay with his car isn't culpable at all for the events that transpired but the minor is. Got it.

 

[boozeman]

I agree. He brought this all on himself. I don't think he had intent to murder, but he's at least guilty of manslaughter.

I could deal with that. And in my mind, it's perfectly valid.

If he had beaten the shit out of Martin until he went into a coma and later died, it would be the same kind of thing, regardless of who started it.

This "stand your ground" nonsense is about as out of hand as this idea that Zimmerman decided he was going to shoot him some black kid in cold blood.

 

[Smitty]

This "stand your ground" nonsense is about as out of hand as this idea that Zimmerman decided he was going to shoot him some black kid in cold blood.

How is it nonsense? You think you should have to run away before defending yourself?

 

[Bob Roberts]

I hope guys in Florida know they can 'follow' their ex-girlfriends and if they try to fight him they can just shoot her.

 

[L.T. Fan]

From my limited knowledge of this case and what I understand, Manslaughter would be appropriate. Murder? Please.

Voluntary or involuntary manslaughter?

 

[Smitty]

I don't think it was reasonable for him to believe his life was in danger.

You don't think it's reasonable to believe your life is in danger when someone who is pummeling you reaches for a gun?

We don't know Trayvon was reaching for his gun.

So you think Zimmerman is lying then.

All the evidence that came out at the trial kinda proves the rest of his story, but interesting that you think he's lying.

The prosecution said Zimmerman was lying about Martin reaching for the gun. The prosecution also said Zimmerman was lying when he said Martin was on top.

Then the expert from the article I posted annihilated the prosecution's case. It almost with 100% certainty proves that Martin was on top.

So it corroborates Zimmerman's story.

What is it that you are basing your suspicions on that he is lying, again?

It doesn't make sense. If Martin was in a dominate position as is being portrayed how couldn't he have had the upper hand in getting the gun if he was in fact reaching for it. I think he got scared and instead of fighting back he shot and killed an unarmed kid.

How couldn't he have had the upper hand? The gun wasn't sitting on his chest. It was tucked away. Martin tried to grapple for it and Zimmerman got to it first.

He would have never followed him had he not had a gun. Maybe a better word would be instigated the incident.

Sure.

And not relevant to a murder or manslaughter conviction if self-defense intervenes.

So it once again goes back to only whether you believe Martin was on top, whether Martin threw the first punch, and whether Martin was reaching for the gun.

We know thanks to this expert that it would have been basically impossible for Martin not to be on top.

yeah the adult who had guidelines of not carrying a weapon when he was on patrol and was told by police dispatchers to stay with his car isn't culpable at all for the events that transpired but the minor is. Got it.

Under the law, if you believe his story, and so far the evidence is running away in his favor, he should not be guilty of manslaughter or murder.