The Great Police Work Thread

[Cowboysrock55]

First of all I was addressing youth specifically. Secondly I do not recall in my earlier life and subsequently hearing of young people killing school mates in mass murder escapades like there has been in the past 20 or so years. And finally the statistics may show a reduction on a per capita basis but the crimes are more violent.

So dudes like Dr. Henry Howard Holmes were less violent in your book? This is a ridiculous premise.

 

[Cowboysrock55]

Over 1,100 Civilians Were Killed By Police In 2014
The number of police killed by citizens amounted to barely 5% of the total murders committed by police.
By Carey Wedler for AntiMedia | May 14, 2015
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In this Aug. 20, 2014 file photo police arrest a man as they disperse a protest against the shooting of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Mo.
(ANTIMEDIA) A new preliminary FBI report shows that in 2014, 51 police officers were feloniously killed in the line of duty. The FBI notes that this is an 89% increase from 2013, when only 27 officers were killed on the job. Though the media swiftly parroted this news and noted the “spike” in officers killed on duty, the details tell a more complicated story than a simple jump in homicides.

While the statistics do show that more officers died in 2014 than 2013, the specifics reveal a less than dire picture for America’s police. First, it is true that the number of “ambushes” on officers increased—by a single case (from 7 in 2013 to 8 in 2014). Still, the largest increases came at traffic stops (3 in 2013 to 10 in 2014) and disturbance calls (5 in 2013 to 11 in 2014). The number of “pre-meditated” attacks did jump by 3, but still accounted for one of the smallest increases in officer deaths. While murders during traffic stops and disturbance calls are relevant, they do not denote as much hostility toward police as outright ambushes and pre-meditated attacks.

Further, while any form of murder is tragic, it is important to look at the long-term trends. Even the FBI notes that the annual average number of police deaths from 1980-2014 was 64. This means that in spite of the sensational 89% increase in murder, the 51 figure is still lower than the three-decade average. The National Law Enforcement Officer’s Memorial Fund has also noted that the rate of officer homicides has dropped steadily since the 1970s, where it peaked at an average of 127.

Additionally, almost as many police officers died in accidents as were murdered in 2014. Out of 44 accidental deaths, 28 were car accidents. Of those 28, 15 were not wearing seatbelts.

While the report appears to denote a marked shift in law enforcement deaths, thereby drumming up sympathy for officers, what it actually reveals is much simpler: that even though one year out of dozens saw an increase in murder against police, the number of officers killed is still monumentally tiny compared to the number of citizens killed by police in 2014.

With 51 officers killed and 1,000 citizens killed by cops, citizens were murdered by police at 21.5 times the rate of officers in 2014. In other words, the number of police killed by citizens amounted to barely 5% of the total murders committed by police.

The disparity is likely much greater. Since police are not required to report on who they kill, the numbers the federal government has are submitted voluntarily. Only 750 of 17,000 of local departments submit data. In 2013, this led to a monumental inaccuracy in statistics. As Reason summarized:

“The FBI’s statistics for 2013 say that law enforcement officers killed 461 people that year. Killedbypolice.net apparently got its start last year. Using their system of monitoring by news report, they have calculated that police actually killed 748 people between May and December. That’s 287 more than the FBI reports for the whole year.”

The 1,100 figure for 2014 is from the same independent aggregator of police murderers, aptly called killedbypolice.net. Even those numbers are not complete considering there is no central authority demanding full records from local police.

While murder is wrong and violence against police officers is a sure way to empower the police state, it is willful ignorance for authorities to ignore the reasons why officers are attacked. Though the federal government has created bureaucracies and commissions to deal with the issue, police still receive military equipment. They still escape prison time, even when caught killing on camera. Body camera laws often offer exemptions to keep evidence from the public. Thousands of families are denied answers and justice because of the thin blue line and the federal government’s compliance.

Just as violent American militarism creates hostile resistance from occupied countries, those targeted unjustly by police are growing increasingly restless and discontent. Protests and disdain for police are a disruptive symptom of even more disruptive policing and authoritarianism.

Rather than reacting to opposition with riot gear, armored vehicles, suppression of free speech, and the military, police who are truly concerned with threats on officers’ lives will benefit from examining why people are so frustrated with them in the first place.

 

[fortsbest]

While the overall number of violent crimes are down, You have to remember that the methods of tracking and reporting crime have somewhat altered that over the years. Since I've been a cop the FBIs method of tracking crime data has changed 3 different times and for each change, you get different results with the same numbers provided by cities. It is also in a city's best interest to help those numbers to reflect that their city is safer than it used to be and changes in reporting stats can help. Remember, there are lies, damn lies and statistics.

And while violent crime reporting has had an affect the fact is that "violent crimes" haven't really changed a whole lot, they just aren't reported on. While we all know it to be true, it doesn't benefit the political narrative of those running the most crime ridden cities to report how high black on black crime really is in their cities. Keep in mind the places with the highest crime and homicide rates have been under Democrat rule for decades. The places with the highest amounts of gun bans and gun control and liberal policies. These are also the places that get the most federal funding for law enforcement and sometimes that is tied to crime initiatives and reporting successful outcomes. Chicago. New York, Los Angeles Washington DC to list the major ones. You guys can sit here and try to push the police are violent minority killers message all you want but it still doesn't ring true. The truth is police are dealing with more violence than ever and except for the rare occasion where a cop really does screw up and its plastered everywhere, most police shooting are righteous.
Don't you guys get tired of hearing how a youth shot was so innocent and precious and never did anything wrong the first week after a shooting and then the next week they show all the facebook, myspace, twitter pictures
of the kid flipping you off while holding multiple guns and sitting by a stack of money or dope?
I've suggested to all of you before and will continue to do so; go do a ride in with your local department and see for yourselves.

 

[Cowboysrock55]

Don't you guys get tired of hearing how a youth shot was so innocent and precious and never did anything wrong the first week after a shooting and then the next week they show all the facebook, myspace, twitter pictures
of the kid flipping you off while holding multiple guns and sitting by a stack of money or dope?
I've suggested to all of you before and will continue to do so; go do a ride in with your local department and see for yourselves.

I'm actually tired of the suggestion that it's ok to murder someone if they have picture on facebook flipping people off or holding a gun. All lives matter, even the lives of people I'm not fond of.

 

[fortsbest]

The title of the website says it all. Killedbypolice.net. What someone really needs to do is dig through the reports and investigations to see the circumstances involved in the shootings. I bet that less than 2% percent of the fatalities were questionable and by that I mean unjustifiable (bad shootings). But nobody wants to do that because its easier to parade a cause case like Michael Brown out and media bash it to death to hound the police and later find it to be a lie that doesn't get corrected. Here is a legit sentiment from someone who realizes the truth.

 

[Cowboysrock55]

I bet that less than 2% percent of the fatalities were questionable and by that I mean unjustifiable (bad shootings).

If that's the case then maybe we need to change the definition of what is justifiable. 1000+ civilians being killed by cops a year is an unjustifiable number in my opinion.

 

[fortsbest]

Lastly, let me make one thing perfectly clear. It is my honest thought and prayer that every police officer could go their entire career without ever having to fire their gun anywhere other than a range, much less at a person and I promise you 99.99% of police feel the same way. I DO realize their are actions taken by some police that are indefensible, but some of you here want that brush stroke to cover every police man and woman across the country and it isn't so. But some of you need to realize that sometimes a person's own actions result in their own demise and that an officer's warranted reaction is to an initial action of another regardless of how emotional you may feel about it.

 

[fortsbest]

Again I say just touting a number as unjustifiable doesn't cut it. Show me the causes of those shootings and we can debate it legitimately because I'm telling you that if everyone of those shootings was as a result of someone pointing a gun at your head and the officer saved you by killing the bad guy with the gun you'd feel differently.

 

[Cowboysrock55]

I'm telling you that if everyone of those shootings was as a result of someone pointing a gun at your head and the officer saved you by killing the bad guy with the gun you'd feel differently.

With 1100 killings and many of them not being reported by the police departments themselves it makes it extremely difficult to debate each and every situation where an officer kills a civilian. Lets not sit here and pretend that your hypothetical scenario is anywhere close to a large percentage of them though. I've been in the legal field long enough where I'm confident saying the vast majority of situations where a civilian is killed involved only the officers and the civilian who was killed. Rarely do they involve bystanders like your scenario.

That isn't to say an officer doesn't have a right to defense themselves but maybe we are too quick to allow that defense to be shooting and killing someone. Ideally those 51 officers who died in the line of duty last year would not have died.

 

[townsend]

So with very little effort (or just backtracking in this thread) we can find so many instances of cops unreasonably using lethal force against unarmed people.

Am I supposed to believe that only the shootings filmed by people with the brassiest fucking balls are the only unjustified shootings?
Wouldn't these have been considered justified without video evidence to the contrary?
How many of those deaths were just called justified on the officer's testimony?

 

[Clay_Allison]

Again I say just touting a number as unjustifiable doesn't cut it. Show me the causes of those shootings and we can debate it legitimately because I'm telling you that if everyone of those shootings was as a result of someone pointing a gun at your head and the officer saved you by killing the bad guy with the gun you'd feel differently.

Somehow other countries are doing it better, I.E. less than ten per year in countries like Germany and the UK. Something we're doing is creating these situations. If the cops are handling those situations appropriately, maybe we are putting them in bad spots a lot more often than we need to.

 

[fortsbest]

I'm actually tired of the suggestion that it's ok to murder someone if they have picture on facebook flipping people off or holding a gun. All lives matter, even the lives of people I'm not fond of.

That isn't what I said or what my point was and for you to take that angle at it absolutely gets to the point I was trying to make. I never said it was ok to "murder" someone (and it isn't a murder if it is justified, get your words right) because they do this, I was merely pointing out the lies people tell in support of a person's character, when the is visible evidence they did not really know the person at all. The " oh he was such a great kid and never would have or use a gun, or use drugs or be involved with a gang, etc." All lives matter and whose responsibility is it to teach them to live lives that will be productive and positive and not wind up in getting shot by anyone much less the police? And it isn't murder if it is justified. It is a homicide regardless.

 

[fortsbest]

With 1100 killings and many of them not being reported by the police departments themselves it makes it extremely difficult to debate each and every situation where an officer kills a civilian. Lets not sit here and pretend that your hypothetical scenario is anywhere close to a large percentage of them though. I've been in the legal field long enough where I'm confident saying the vast majority of situations where a civilian is killed involved only the officers and the civilian who was killed. Rarely do they involve bystanders like your scenario.

That isn't to say an officer doesn't have a right to defense themselves but maybe we are too quick to allow that defense to be shooting and killing someone. Ideally those 51 officers who died in the line of duty last year would not have died.

Really, does it? I didn't say we had to do it, but someone out there can. Because as I said, just throwing out a number and saying 1100 (again I doubt the number that high, but even a number half that is way too much in all our opinions (mine too BTW just not for the same reasons) it is too high because it is a big number is not doing the due diligence. There are people who take the time to do long term articles and research on everything, why not this? Because it is much easier to throw out the big number without the relevant background information if you are trying to condemn a person, profession or business which is exactly what the people doing this are trying to do.

CBR, I gave that as an example not to say every shooting is like that, but in theory, someone's life was in imminent jeopardy because that should be the only time deadly use of force is authorized by all departments.

 

[fortsbest]

Somehow other countries are doing it better, I.E. less than ten per year in countries like Germany and the UK. Something we're doing is creating these situations. If the cops are handling those situations appropriately, maybe we are putting them in bad spots a lot more often than we need to.

Again numbers. how do you know those numbers are any more accurate than the ones reported about US police. How do they report instances of police shootings and how are they classified so they are reported. Plus, you don't have the same set of living circumstances in those countries you have here with people that behave the same. Find me the city in Europe that deals with Bloods, Crips, MS13 and groups like taht on a daily basis that are as busy killing each other and innocents as the big cities here. IT's apples and oranges dude. We have folks that policed in Germany and Poland and other countries on our force and they are completely shocked at the circumstances they have to deal with in comparison. Not even close to the same.

 

[fortsbest]

And in addition to that, I think it's always sad how people with agendas look at the end results alone without ever venturing in to the source of a problem. I concede there will always be places that don't get the proper training and experiences before getting to the street. But think what it must be like to work an d live in an area where the culture is so ingrained with gang life, thuggary and where killing one another is no big deal because someone walked in an area with the wrong colored clothing on? Where prison life is celebrated rather than shunned. Where songs about beating people, shooting people, killing cops, treating women like cattle and worse is everyday life. Assume cops shoot and kill 1100 people a year, how many people a year are killed by people from circumstances such as these? And then imagine working daily trying to keep the peace in those areas. If black lives matter, why doesn't the media and public care more about this stuff. Help with this and I promise the number of police shootings justified or not goes down.

 

[Cotton]

Somehow other countries are doing it better, I.E. less than ten per year in countries like Germany and the UK. Something we're doing is creating these situations. If the cops are handling those situations appropriately, maybe we are putting them in bad spots a lot more often than we need to.

Well, to be fair, cops at least in the England part of the UK don't carry guns. Kinda hard to kill someone if you don't have a gun. Are you suggesting our cops not be allowed to carry a gun?

 

[Cowboysrock55]

That isn't what I said or what my point was and for you to take that angle at it absolutely gets to the point I was trying to make. I never said it was ok to "murder" someone (and it isn't a murder if it is justified, get your words right)

I chose my words correctly. When we are talking about an officer potentially murdering someone there is no place in the discussion for the victims character as you seem to think.

I don't really like the term justifiable either. It seems to give officers more freedom to kill someone then a person who doesn't have a badge. The standards should be the same self defense standards that we hold the general population to. You can use equal force to defend yourself or others but nothing greater.

 

[Cotton]

I chose my words correctly. When we are talking about an officer potentially murdering someone there is no place in the discussion for the victims character as you seem to think.

I don't really like the term justifiable either. It seems to give officers more freedom to kill someone then a person who doesn't have a badge. The standards should be the same self defense standards that we hold the general population to. You can use equal force to defend yourself or others but nothing greater.

I agree with this, but it's still stupid that the media tries to portray people like Michael Brown as some upstanding citizen just to sensationalize the situation even further.

 

[Cowboysrock55]

CBR, I gave that as an example not to say every shooting is like that, but in theory, someone's life was in imminent jeopardy because that should be the only time deadly use of force is authorized by all departments.

Sure and I can give you an example of a person running away from an officer and being gunned down. There are probably more videos of that happening then the hostage example you give. Doesn't mean either of those examples is likely to be the majority.

 

[Cowboysrock55]

I agree with this, but it's still stupid that the media tries to portray people like Michael Brown as some upstanding citizen just to sensationalize the situation even further.

I agree with that. The media is a different topic though. They don't give two shits about anything other then ratings.