The Great Police Work Thread

[L.T. Fan]

In the immortal words of you know who, that's just how I was raised.

 

[Jiggyfly]

In this country?

What does this country have to do with anything does marijuana affect people differently in different countries.

And it has been virtually legal in California fo years so yes this country.

 

[fortsbest]

I'm not a cop hater but I have a wondering story. I had an very nice enclosed trailer full of valuable stuff parked at my shop that was stolen. My shop is in an industrial complex with multiple businesses in it. Thankfully there were cameras everywhere to view the incident. The investigator refused to come back to watch the video due to lure laziness. So damn annoying...

Months later I saw it going dwon the road and called the cops to help...nuthin....

Sorry for your issues Skids. You know I hate lazy police work as much if not more than anyone here.

Kicking down doors and going in guns blazing after drugs is stupid, even if it's the worst drug out there (meth). Keep it illegal? Sure. Arrest people who have it? Sure. Execute no-knock warrants at the risk of both officer and public safety? Why? If they have a no-shit drug lab in the house they aren't going to be able to flush their gear down the toilet. If they are a WGAS dealer, use your snitches and undercover cops like normal police.

Aside from pot, peyote and mushrooms (and I don't mind you disagreeing with those, I'm not passionate about either) It's not the drug laws I object to, it's just the "war" as in using military weapons and tactics instead of policing to get the job done.

Clay, I know you know the jail aspect of things, and I honestly can't offer great info on running drug warrants as I have not desired to nor been assigned to work in narcotics, ever. But I will not complain about the use of no knock warrants in terms of large quantities of drugs because you know and I know that in 100% of the cases it isn't only about drugs. Where there are drugs labs, there are guns. Where there are large quantities of drugs for sale, there is stolen property and guns. Not to mention lots of times they are tied in with cartels so that sometimes means labs, guns, drugs, prostitution and human trafficking. Thanks Iamtdg for trying to be a defender of policing, but as I mentioned in a post before, this whole thread is targeted finding fault with folks who do a damn hard job and have to take more crap for doing it than any other profession. We've got 36 pages of this now and aside from a few positive commentators, I and Iamtdg are the only ones who have actually posted either good or positive articles on police. (LT too sorry).

In terms of legalization, you all know I'm not for it, but if they do it, then those are the laws we will enforce. Talk to your politicians, but don't blame cops for doing what they were hired to do.

 

[skidadl]

Sorry for your issues Skids. You know I hate lazy police work as much if not more than anyone here.

Damn, I typoed up my original post there. Obviously you found a way to get my point.

The guy basically said that it is a long shot for me to recover it and that it would be pure luck. I get it that I can't have my own private investigator supplied by the city but this guy was really apathetic. He could have looked at the video and tried at least.

 

[Clay_Allison]

Sorry for your issues Skids. You know I hate lazy police work as much if not more than anyone here.



Clay, I know you know the jail aspect of things, and I honestly can't offer great info on running drug warrants as I have not desired to nor been assigned to work in narcotics, ever. But I will not complain about the use of no knock warrants in terms of large quantities of drugs because you know and I know that in 100% of the cases it isn't only about drugs. Where there are drugs labs, there are guns. Where there are large quantities of drugs for sale, there is stolen property and guns. Not to mention lots of times they are tied in with cartels so that sometimes means labs, guns, drugs, prostitution and human trafficking.

All the more reason not to execute no-knock warrant. Drug dealers are less likely to violently resist when they know it's the cops. When they think it's a rival gang they will fight. You're not giving yourself an advantage, you're making it more likely one of you will get shot. If there is a lot of drugs, guns, stolen property etc they won't be able to flush it all down the toilet. You'll get them for plenty, especially considering sentencing in this state.

I'm not making this up. My criminal justice professor worked for California Bureau of Narcotic Enforcement and this, as well as most of my practical concerns with how the war on drugs is prosecuted comes from what I learned in college about how it works. I have a degree with major coursework in criminal justice, unlike 90% of cops.

 

[L.T. Fan]

All the more reason not to execute no-knock warrant. Drug dealers are less likely to violently resist when they know it's the cops. When they think it's a rival gang they will fight. You're not giving yourself an advantage, you're making it more likely one of you will get shot. If there is a lot of drugs, guns, stolen property etc they won't be able to flush it all down the toilet. You'll get them for plenty, especially considering sentencing in this state.

I'm not making this up. My criminal justice professor worked for California Bureau of Narcotic Enforcement and this, as well as most of my practical concerns with how the war on drugs is prosecuted comes from what I learned in college about how it works. I have a degree with major coursework in criminal justice, unlike 90% of cops.

Yeah. Cops only have actual experience.

 

[Clay_Allison]

Yeah. Cops only have actual experience.

Experience flying by the seat of their pants without knowing the law or what a constitutional right is. It's no wonder US cops kill people at a rate so much higher than the rest of the world.

The FBI reports that in 2011, cops in America killed 404 suspects in acts of "justifiable homicide." Astonishingly, though, as FiveThirtyEight reports, this number likely doesn't include every civilian fatality that year since it relies on voluntary reporting and doesn't include police homicides that aren't justifiable.

By comparison, just six people were killed by police in Australia over the same period. Police in England and Wales killed only two people, and German police killed six.

source: http://www.businessinsider.com/why-do-us-police-kill-so-many-people-2014-8

Cops are given power and a level of trust far beyond school teachers and they are paid as much or more. I don't see any reason a 19 year old with a GED and a relative on the force should be trusted with a badge, a gun, and a licence to kill.

 

[L.T. Fan]

Experience flying by the seat of their pants without knowing the law or what a constitutional right is. It's no wonder US cops kill people at a rate so much higher than the rest of the world.



source: http://www.businessinsider.com/why-do-us-police-kill-so-many-people-2014-8

Cops are given power and a level of trust far beyond school teachers and they are paid as much or more. I don't see any reason a 19 year old with a GED and a relative on the force should be trusted with a badge, a gun, and a licence to kill.

Sounds more like the exception rather than the rule. I have never encountered a 19 year old policeman.

 

[Clay_Allison]

Soundsmore like the exception rather than the rule. I have never encountered a 19 year old policeman.

Either way, I'd be more comfortable knowing people given complete authority to do whatever they want to whomever they want wasn't a C student with some powerpoint training.

A recent Michigan State study showed that cops with college degrees were significantly less likely to use force than those without.

 

[fortsbest]

All the more reason not to execute no-knock warrant. Drug dealers are less likely to violently resist when they know it's the cops. When they think it's a rival gang they will fight. You're not giving yourself an advantage, you're making it more likely one of you will get shot. If there is a lot of drugs, guns, stolen property etc they won't be able to flush it all down the toilet. You'll get them for plenty, especially considering sentencing in this state.

I'm not making this up. My criminal justice professor worked for California Bureau of Narcotic Enforcement and this, as well as most of my practical concerns with how the war on drugs is prosecuted comes from what I learned in college about how it works. I have a degree with major coursework in criminal justice, unlike 90% of cops.

I never claimed you were making it up. It is your steadfast opinion based on what you have learned and I respect that. I just personally disagree with it. I am not however blind to the fact there are issues with drug prosecutions and the danger enforcement of the laws presents. And just FYI, the estimate on cops and degrees is about 30% having them, not 10%. We aren't all illiterate.

 

[fortsbest]

Experience flying by the seat of their pants without knowing the law or what a constitutional right is. It's no wonder US cops kill people at a rate so much higher than the rest of the world.

Ok, this is non sense because most large cities that run their own academies go through law and constitutional rights as thorough as a college course. To not do so is ridiculous and creates far too much liability. for the rest, most go to regional academies which are mostly college campuses teaching college level courses. Maybe not multiple classes of the same, but college level courses non the less. Maybe jailers don't have to do it, but licensed peace officers do.

source: http://www.businessinsider.com/why-do-us-police-kill-so-many-people-2014-8

are given power and a level of trust far beyond school teachers and they are paid as much or more. I don't see any reason a 19 year old with a GED and a relative on the force should be trusted with a badge, a gun, and a licence to kill.

Yes they are given that power and trust, and in more than 80% of places, the likely make the same as teachers. And your last statement says it all. You have to be 21 to be a licensed peace officer and we don't have a license to kill. Dang dude your bitterness is coming though in exaggeration and hyperbole. Please stop.

And this article is a non starter as soon as they brought in quotes from some gun control guy who says the NRA is the problem. Legal gun owners are rarely if ever the ones getting shot.

 

[fortsbest]

Either way, I'd be more comfortable knowing people given complete authority to do whatever they want to whomever they want wasn't a C student with some powerpoint training.

A recent Michigan State study showed that cops with college degrees were significantly less likely to use force than those without.

I just did a paper on cops and college and i found as many studies for my literature review that said they did as didn't. Don't be so selective.

 

[BipolarFuk]

No knock warrants.....doesn't get much more fucking police state than that.

Make a mistake, kick down a door, flash bang grenade a toddler in the fucking face.

What do those victims get? An aw shucks, we have a hard damn job apology?

 

[Clay_Allison]

No knock warrants.....doesn't get much more fucking police state than that.

Make a mistake, kick down a door, flash bang grenade a toddler in the fucking face.

What do those victims get? An aw shucks, we have a hard damn job apology?

It's all worth it because the war on drugs keeps drugs from being available.

 

[townsend]

I'm just spitballing here but I feel like officer's age, temperament, and the culture they work in, has a lot more to do with whether they should be considered a risk than education.

I'd want to screen out people with violent backgrounds (including veterans that had seen extensive action.) Anyone under the age of 25. I'd also want to monitor how the police and especially the leadership talks about the public. I feel that there are many police depts who tend to stoke an us vs them mentality within their organization. That leads to use of violence and corruption.

 

[Clay_Allison]

I'm just spitballing here but I feel like officer's age, temperament, and the culture they work in, has a lot more to do with whether they should be considered a risk than education.

I'd want to screen out people with violent backgrounds (including veterans that had seen extensive action.) Anyone under the age of 25. I'd also want to monitor how the police and especially the leadership talks about the public. I feel that there are many police depts who tend to stoke an us vs them mentality within their organization. That leads to use of violence and corruption.

I say all the time, including at work, that you can't get bad results without bad leadership. If the players aren't performing, I look at the coach. If the employees aren't working I look at the manager. If the cops are misbehaving you can bet that there is a corrupt politician running the show and helping his buddies get away with shit while chasing off the good officers to other departments or other occupations.

IMO, this is a big part of the disconnect in here. You really don't know about corrupt policing until you've been in or dealt with a PD that's being run very badly. From the perspective of [MENTION=49]fortsbest[/MENTION] he's in a department I've never heard anything bad about so he doesn't see what goes on in an infamous PD like New Orleans, Chicago, NY, or even Ft Worth who seem to do something insanely fucked up every couple of months.

I don't see what happens on max units from my minimum security job. I've heard enough to know how fucked up it is. I also know who's to blame because at least I'm in a state agency and there is a (corrupt as hell) state board and director and that's a matter of public record. Depending on where you are, the biggest problem might be the local sheriff, the chief of police, the mayor, the city council, the DA, a judge, or any political power base. Or you might be in an area that's totally cool and not know what all the fuss is about.

 

[L.T. Fan]

If i am reading your post correctly your seem to think a corrupt head of a system corrupts the members of same. Does your agency head's corrupt practices make you have corrupt practices?

 

[Clay_Allison]

If i am reading your post correctly your seem to think a corrupt head of a system corrupts the members of same. Does your agency head's corrupt practices make you have corrupt practices?

You are not reading me correctly. It's not like corruption in Chicago corrupts all 12000 officers. It just has to allow the number of bad apples to go from (purely hypothetical number) 1% to 10% to have a big impact. Also, I did point out that the little minimum security unit where I work doesn't have the problems the 3000+ bed max units have (rampant corruption, mostly in the form of dirty officers smuggling in contraband). If you're a good officer in a bad environment, it could corrupt you, possibly. Or, you could try to make the best of it. Or, it could frustrate you until you quit. I think if I had taken a job at Connolly or McConnell units (two infamously dirty max units in south Texas) I probably wouldn't have stayed long before quitting.

 

[townsend]

It's not just how corrupt leadership is, but whether they're in touch with their subbordinates. On my sub there was a lot of shady stuff that happened because our supervisors didn't alot us enough time to do certain things by the book. If leadership doesn't allow for an honest dialog and is unreceptive to feedback then the guys on the bottom will (unwisely) take it upon themselves for "getting things done."

 

[fortsbest]

I'm just spitballing here but I feel like officer's age, temperament, and the culture they work in, has a lot more to do with whether they should be considered a risk than education.

I'd want to screen out people with violent backgrounds (including veterans that had seen extensive action.) Anyone under the age of 25. I'd also want to monitor how the police and especially the leadership talks about the public. I feel that there are many police depts who tend to stoke an us vs them mentality within their organization. That leads to use of violence and corruption.

I completely agree with your first few points. I also wouldn't mind raising the age limit for hiring to 25. Large police departments do extensive back ground and psyche evals before hiring. I know ours does and has for years. It still isn't always a perfect system though. And sometimes politics still can interfere if a chief isn't strong enough to stop it.

You are not reading me correctly. It's not like corruption in Chicago corrupts all 12000 officers. It just has to allow the number of bad apples to go from (purely hypothetical number) 1% to 10% to have a big impact. Also, I did point out that the little minimum security unit where I work doesn't have the problems the 3000+ bed max units have (rampant corruption, mostly in the form of dirty officers smuggling in contraband). If you're a good officer in a bad environment, it could corrupt you, possibly. Or, you could try to make the best of it. Or, it could frustrate you until you quit. I think if I had taken a job at Connolly or McConnell units (two infamously dirty max units in south Texas) I probably wouldn't have stayed long before quitting.

Bad leadership isn't always at the top. especially in departments as large as some of those you listed. Sometimes it is mid level leadership that is lacking that allows subordinates to screw around and get in trouble or do shady things. But that is the same in any organization, not just police. If high level leadership finds out about it though and does nothing, then you are correct it sends the signal it's all ok.

BTW what screwy things does FT Worth do every few months you were referring to that. The few things I know about that happened in our dept our leadership took care of.

It's not just how corrupt leadership is, but whether they're in touch with their subbordinates. On my sub there was a lot of shady stuff that happened because our supervisors didn't alot us enough time to do certain things by the book. If leadership doesn't allow for an honest dialog and is unreceptive to feedback then the guys on the bottom will (unwisely) take it upon themselves for "getting things done."

Good points sir. Leadership that isn't in touch with and doesn't communicate with their folk isn't leadership, it's dictatorship. It's the same in government and employment.