The Outrage Thread

[Cowboysrock55]

As far as kids go, that's a decision for parents and the kids to make jointly. Not your decision or mine. If a kid is convinced they are the wrong gender and the parent is supportive, then do your thing. Don't agree with that part? Fine. Not everyone is willing to let kids have surgery or treatment.

You really think a kid whose brain isn't completely developed and who is honestly changing his/her tastes from one week to the next is qualified to make this decision? I just can't agree with that. You're making permanent decisions at an age where you have absolutely no idea what you will feel even a couple years later. And I get the concept of let parents be parents, but you have to limit parents from doing awful things. Such as cutting off their kids finger or loping off their boobs.

As far as calling something mental illness I don't get the offended stigma people associate with the term. I don't consider it derogatory to say someone who has depression has mental illness. If you're having sex reassignment surgery, isn't it due to a mistake with your mental capacity? You're claiming your brain is female while your body is male or vice versa. By definition wouldn't that be a biological issue dealing with your brain chemistry? I think the way a transgender person defines their situation would fall under mental illness, one they are trying to correct by modifying their body?

 

[Cujo]

The manual said they were mentally ill not that many years ago.

Until very recently it did. And while some of their mental health issues tend to be blamed on environment, i.e., abuse, discrimination, etc., they also show a higher prevalence of ADHD and schizophrenia which cannot be blamed on the same sources.

 

[Cujo]

It's the stated purpose mental health authorities to "destigmatize" transgenderism like was done with homosexuality.

The problem is that the two are really nothing alike.

There are plenty of gay people who do not support them.

 

[Cowboysrock55]

The manual said they were mentally ill not that many years ago.

I think it changed as recently as 2012? Which means that if I said it wasn't a mental illness back then I would have had it thrown in my face that I'm denying science and the experts. Just sort of tells you that these definitions are arbitrary and fluid.

 

[Smitty]

I think it changed as recently as 2012? Which means that if I said it wasn't a mental illness back then I would have had it thrown in my face that I'm denying science and the experts. Just sort of tells you that these definitions are arbitrary and fluid.

Mental illness is any and all mental disorders, including depression. The DSM lists gender dysphoria as a mental disorder.

Nowadays there is a big push to say that gender dysphoria is not mental illness. Well then what the fuck is it? If you are depressed you are mentally ill. If you are gender dysphoric you are also mentally ill, it’s just that no one is willing to say it because they want it to be the same as being gay, which it isn’t, and so all these mentally unstable people will be out there being celebrated instead of being properly treated.

 

[shane]

Beyond insane:

Trans inmate who filmed sexual abuse of 7-year-old daughter housed in troubled NJ women’s prison

Volz — who previously went by Matthew before transitioning — is now listed as ‘female’ in official prison records.

nypost.com

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Also, treatment doesn't "lead to" mental illness as Prodigal Son wrongly claims here.

Mental illness either exists or it doesn't. The wrong treatment wouldn't "create" new mental illness. It would simply not fix whatever the problem is, leading to further depression, and then action on that uncorrected mental illness, such as suicide.

So the young boy who tells his parents that he feels like a girl and then is corrected and reinforced that he's a boy instead of being given hormone treatment.... that doesn't "create" or "lead to," any mental illness.

Perhaps his argument is that such reinforcement of reality in an uncompassionate manner does little to alleviate the reported suffering of the youth who feels disconnected via gender stereotypes to his actual body, and thus suffers depression from it.

But that's not creating the mental illness. The disconnect is already there.

Perhaps just saying "You are a boy, suck it up," is merely not a helpful treatment of the underlying mental illness/depression. Fair enough.

But chemical castration or surgical intervention isn't either.

Maybe you misunderstood, when I said "treatment" I was referring to how we treat each other. If you don't think your actions can effect other people and cause mental distress, than you are sorely mistaken.

In your scenario, the little boy who was being "corrected" by his parents can absolutely develop depression, anxiety and a whole host of symptoms by being treated that way by his parents. Not every child can just take criticism and a lot of parents (especially in these scenarios) can be verbally abusive. Symptoms that may not have been present otherwise can manifest in those scenarios. Not everyone has some chemical imbalance and have those symptoms begin out of nowhere. Often, people's symptoms are triggered by events like this.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Mental illness is any and all mental disorders, including depression. The DSM lists gender dysphoria as a mental disorder.

Nowadays there is a big push to say that gender dysphoria is not mental illness. Well then what the fuck is it? If you are depressed you are mentally ill. If you are gender dysphoric you are also mentally ill, it’s just that no one is willing to say it because they want it to be the same as being gay, which it isn’t, and so all these mentally unstable people will be out there being celebrated instead of being properly treated.

Gender Dysphoria is more about the symptoms of distress related to being trans and less about being trans itself. There are a lot of people who identify as trans, are open about it and have a good support system, thus they don't deal with any distress. They don't have gender dysphoria.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

You really think a kid whose brain isn't completely developed and who is honestly changing his/her tastes from one week to the next is qualified to make this decision? I just can't agree with that. You're making permanent decisions at an age where you have absolutely no idea what you will feel even a couple years later. And I get the concept of let parents be parents, but you have to limit parents from doing awful things. Such as cutting off their kids finger or loping off their boobs.

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying if a kid feels they are supposed to be the opposite gender, they would be the ones to advocate to their parents for any action. The parents are responsible to make the ultimate decision, but the kid is part of it.

As far as calling something mental illness I don't get the offended stigma people associate with the term. I don't consider it derogatory to say someone who has depression has mental illness. If you're having sex reassignment surgery, isn't it due to a mistake with your mental capacity? You're claiming your brain is female while your body is male or vice versa. By definition wouldn't that be a biological issue dealing with your brain chemistry? I think the way a transgender person defines their situation would fall under mental illness, one they are trying to correct by modifying their body?

I think it's looked at more like a hermaphrodite. Someone with the wrong sex organs as compared to their gender. That's a biological mistake, not a person with a mental illness.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

I think it changed as recently as 2012? Which means that if I said it wasn't a mental illness back then I would have had it thrown in my face that I'm denying science and the experts. Just sort of tells you that these definitions are arbitrary and fluid.

It was changed in the 70's. From the first manual in the 50's til then, homosexuality was in it. Not surprising considering the time and how homosexuals were viewed then. After the 70's, it wasn't about being a homosexual that was classified as a mental disorder, but the distress over one's homosexuality. Similar situation to gender dysphoria/trans folks.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

So there's been an exponential rise in the number of biological mistakes in the last two years? And an even bigger increase among the Hollywood types? Okay.

Also, young kids can't drink, smoke, get tattoos, or do plenty of other things even with their parents' permission. But they can destroy their sexual organs and irreparably change the rest of their lives before they can even buy a beer? Makes total sense.

 

[Cowboysrock55]

I think it's looked at more like a hermaphrodite. Someone with the wrong sex organs as compared to their gender. That's a biological mistake, not a person with a mental illness.

It certainly is a shift. Instead of treating on the mental side the view has shifted to treating on the physical side. Meaning we no longer try to treat the mental aspect of it but instead modify the body via hormones and surgery.

But akin to mental disorders that can't be diagnosed at a young age because of the developing brain, I also don't think you can diagnose and make permanent modifications to a child's body based on a brain that is still developing and changing.

 

[Cowboysrock55]

So there's been an exponential rise in the number of biological mistakes in the last two years? And an even bigger increase among the Hollywood types? Okay.

Sort of like the rise in ADHD. Is it because we are diagnosing it more often, is it because of changes in society causing it, is there a biological shift in society. I'm sure most Trans activists would say we just essentially covered it up until recently. We told a Trans person no, you're not a girl or boy based on biological gender. So now that we have become accepting we are just discovering now how high the numbers are. Of course on the flip side, you could argue the opposite. Now that we have made it mainstream and given so much attention to it, how many are claiming they are transgender for reasons outside of biology? It's not like a BAC where you can run a physical test and say yes or no.

Which is why I say it's mental illness. There is no way to accurately diagnose without evaluating the function of the brain. Something that is very subjective.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

So there's been an exponential rise in the number of biological mistakes in the last two years? And an even bigger increase among the Hollywood types? Okay.

Also, young kids can't drink, smoke, get tattoos, or do plenty of other things even with their parents' permission. But they can destroy their sexual organs and irreparably change the rest of their lives before they can even buy a beer? Makes total sense.

We have no idea how big the rise truly is. Homosexuality has always been a large portion of society, but since it wasn't accepted for so long, they stayed in the closet and you didn't hear about it. Same thing can be said of the trans community now that they feel empowered to be open about it. We have no clue how many people actually felt this way 50 years ago compared to now.

Is that to say all trans people are legit? Absolutely not. There will be a portion that are just attention seekers and there will even be a portion who truly are mentally ill and delusional. But the percent of delusional people in our society is so small, it's not effecting this population as much as some want to believe.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

It certainly is a shift. Instead of treating on the mental side the view has shifted to treating on the physical side. Meaning we no longer try to treat the mental aspect of it but instead modify the body via hormones and surgery.

But akin to mental disorders that can't be diagnosed at a young age because of the developing brain, I also don't think you can diagnose and make permanent modifications to a child's body based on a brain that is still developing and changing.

It's just the advancement of society. 100 years ago, nobody altered their bodies. Then it became taboo, but people had plastic surgery. Then it was wildly accepted and even encouraged. Now people want to change their genders altogether. The vast majority of people making any alterations to their body are doing so for reasons that have nothing to do with mental illness, with the exception of maybe trying to increase their self esteem.

 

[Cowboysrock55]

It's just the advancement of society. 100 years ago, nobody altered their bodies. Then it became taboo, but people had plastic surgery. Then it was wildly accepted and even encouraged. Now people want to change their genders altogether. The vast majority of people making any alterations to their body are doing so for reasons that have nothing to do with mental illness, with the exception of maybe trying to increase their self esteem.

Body Dysmorphia? Considered mental illness. People suffering from this mental illness often have cosmetic surgery to try to fix minor or imagined flaws in their body. Similar in many ways.

But yes, many plastic surgeries have nothing to do with mental illness. But many do.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Body Dysmorphia? Considered mental illness. People suffering from this mental illness often have cosmetic surgery to try to fix minor or imagined flaws in their body. Similar in many ways.

But yes, many plastic surgeries have nothing to do with mental illness. But many do.

Sure, but BDD occurs in less than 3% of people. Again, very small number of people compared to the overall amount that has plastic surgery.

 

[Smitty]

Maybe you misunderstood, when I said "treatment" I was referring to how we treat each other. If you don't think your actions can effect other people and cause mental distress, than you are sorely mistaken.

The idea that traumatic events can trigger depression is a fairly new one that we don't fully understand yet, but the treatment for depression, which works, is still medicine that impacts the brain chemistry.

So that tells you a lot.

In your scenario, the little boy who was being "corrected" by his parents can absolutely develop depression, anxiety and a whole host of symptoms by being treated that way by his parents. Not every child can just take criticism and a lot of parents (especially in these scenarios) can be verbally abusive. Symptoms that may not have been present otherwise can manifest in those scenarios. Not everyone has some chemical imbalance and have those symptoms begin out of nowhere. Often, people's symptoms are triggered by events like this.

More likely the brain chemistry is already prone to depression and the external stimuli exacerbate it.

 

[Smitty]

Gender Dysphoria is more about the symptoms of distress related to being trans and less about being trans itself. There are a lot of people who identify as trans, are open about it and have a good support system, thus they don't deal with any distress. They don't have gender dysphoria.

No, this isn't true. Gender dysphoria is about the unease or unhappiness a person experiences because of a (perceived) mismatch between their "gender identity," and their provable, scientific biological sex. A person's support structure may ease their external suffering by enabling them to live outwardly under their chosen "gender identity," but that doesn't mean they don't have gender dysphoria. If you forced a boy who identifies as a girl to go back to living as a boy, the gender dysphoria would result. That's what the term means.

The people who experience gender dysphoria are experiencing a mental disorder.

The entire definition of transgender - "having a gender identity that is different that the gender presumed when they were born (ie, their biological sex)" is one that is based on the idea that their internal gender identity does not match biologic sex.

To be transgender is to have gender dysphoria. If you weren't experiencing unease with identifying as your biological sex, there is no motivation to undergo the change.

.......

We can go from here into the realm that all of this is pseudo-scientific gobbledygook. There is no such things as "internal knowledge of gender identity." It's a made-up, unprovable false reality.

The way I know I'm a man is my biology. There is no other way.

How I feel is just my feelings. If I "feel" that I'm a woman, or "know that I'm a woman" in the fake parlance of modern trans advocates, that doesn't mean anything tangible.

What that phrase expresses, and expresses only, is a preference to present an external image to society that is different than biological sex. But in reality the words "sex" and "gender" have been interchageable in the english language for like a thousand years, ie.... back to the roots of the language as a language. It's only since like, the 1960s (wow, who can guess what was going on then?) that the words sex and gender diverged to mean "biological sex," versus "social construct of roles and behaviors generally associated with biological sex." Ie, strung out 1960s counterculture academics who hated society made up a definition of gender to fight back against the homogenous stereotypical male dominated civilization they lived in. What a world.

The entire modern concept of gender identity is merely a high-browed dressing up of the concept that a woman doesn't have to wear dresses and play with dolls. Well no shit.

Doesn't make you an actual man though.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

No, this isn't true. Gender dysphoria is about the unease or unhappiness a person experiences because of a (perceived) mismatch between their "gender identity," and their provable, scientific biological sex. A person's support structure may ease their external suffering by enabling them to live outwardly under their chosen "gender identity," but that doesn't mean they don't have gender dysphoria. If you forced a boy who identifies as a girl to go back to living as a boy, the gender dysphoria would result. That's what the term means.

The people who experience gender dysphoria are experiencing a mental disorder.

The entire definition of transgender - "having a gender identity that is different that the gender presumed when they were born (ie, their biological sex)" is one that is based on the idea that their internal gender identity does not match biologic sex.

To be transgender is to have gender dysphoria.

We can go from here into the realm that all of this is pseudo-scientific gobbledygook. There is no such things as "internal knowledge of gender identity." It's a made-up, unprovable false reality.

The way I know I'm a man is my biology. There is no other way.

How I feel is just my feelings. If I "feel" that I'm a woman, or "know that I'm a woman" in the fake parlance of modern trans advocates, that doesn't mean anything tangible.

What that phrase expresses, and expresses only, is a preference to present an external image to society that is different than biological sex. But in reality the words "sex" and "gender" have been interchageable in the english language for like a thousand years, ie.... back to the roots of the language as a language. It's only since like, the 1960s (wow, who can guess what was going on then?) that the words sex and gender diverged to mean "biological sex," versus "social construct of roles and behaviors generally associated with sex."

The entire modern concept of gender identity is merely a high-browed dressing up of the concept that a woman doesn't have to wear dresses and play with dolls. Well no shit.

Doesn't make you an actual man though.

No.

Not all trans people experience distress over it. If there is no distress, there is no diagnosis. It's literally the 2nd sentence in the diagnostic feature section.