2021 Season | Week 11 | Gameday Chatter Thread | Cowboys @ Chiefs | 11/21/21

Smitty

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They're not that same team, especially on defense and on the coaching staff, and even on the offensive line. They took a big step backwards in 2019 (while relatively healthy by the way) so unquestionably getting back to the playoffs represents progress. By definition.
Ok, but then you are answering your constant question as to why Garrett got year after year, because every time he had a down year, he'd have a bounce-back "progress," year. '14, '16, and '18 all would have been firings without playoffs, but each of those years represented "progress," over the previous non-playoff year.

In relation to the CORE of the team, it absolutely is substantially the same. If you are going to say that the amount of changes we've had since '18 means the team has a fresh slate, then every team has a fresh slate every year because that's just standard turnover.

Our core of veterans has remained substantially the same since '18, and has had almost the same OFFENSIVE core since 2016, which is relatively stable all things considered. Doing what the '18 team did is not progress for those veterans. And since those are the guys I'm mostly interested in evaluating (ie, I'm not asking about "progress," for the 25 new players on the roster this year), I am not counting it as progress for guys like Dak, Elliott, Cooper, Smith, Martin, etc.
 

Genghis Khan

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If you can get consistent pressure, often times with only rushing 4-5, that's a "blueprint" for beating any QB. I don't think the coverage played by the Broncos/Chiefs is so much the blueprint as it is the consistent and immediate pressure that they got.

But that's obviously the case for any offense, it's not unique to us.

I disagree with that.

We've been pressured before and struggled on the offensive line and didn't go belly up like yesterday and the Denver game. Last year prior to Dak going down the offensive line was a mess and Dak was pressured pretty constantly and we still put up 30 points and 400 yards of offense.

This is something different.

The coverages are bothering us. It seems like it anyway.
 

Simpleton

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It absolutely fricking is when you are talking about the same starting QB and the same bell-cow feature RB and practically the same OL.

This is your group. Has been since '16.

Time to see if they can elevate. This isn't some fresh slate for these guys.

They've maxed out as a divisional round loss team in '16 and '18 and haven't shown the consistency to even make the playoffs in back to back years.

I'm not saying run them out of town but to give them the excuses that no one ever bought for the last coach is silly. Frankly, I DO give them those excuses - Elliott suspended for half the season in '17, the GM not giving us any WRs in '18, the turnover and lack of defensive talent in '19 and '20. All cost us chances to repeat as playoff teams. But if we are holding feet to the fire then these players need to have theirs held to the fire as well.

Making the playoffs and losing in the divisional round for these guys is not progress, it's the same old shit.
:lol

Sure, sure.

What you're missing is that McCarthy has been here for 1.5 years and yet you want to us to accept the premise that if we only make the 2nd round that he should face the full brunt of the fury/apathy Garrett got after being here for 10.

No, that's not fair.

I'm willing to give him another year or two to see if he can build on that, and if not, then he can go.
 

Cowboysrock55

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Its partially correct. We have great depth when the bottom half isnt required to fill the 1 and 2 spots. For a few plays a game they do perform nice enough for a 4,5,6.
Well Wilson and Brown will have a chance to
Was it McGovern who fell victim to Chris Jones arse rape? Or Biadasz? Or both?
Martin gave up a sack against him too. The dude lined up all over and beat basically everyone. I know he played some end too and beat our OTs. He was the one player I was worried about in this game and he wrecked us yesterday.
 
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Simpleton

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I disagree with that.

We've been pressured before and struggled on the offensive line and didn't go belly up like yesterday and the Denver game. Last year prior to Dak going down the offensive line was a mess and Dak was pressured pretty constantly and we still put up 30 points and 400 yards of offense.

This is something different.

The coverages are bothering us. It seems like it anyway.
That was when we were playing catch up though, pretty different.

There is no reason that teams should be able to get pressure with 4-5, while also stopping the run consistently though, and that's another major part of this. Denver stuffed the running game, Kansas City did ok but Moore took that off the table for them for the most part.

If teams are able to both consistently stuff the run and get pressure with 4-5 then that's on Moore getting outcoached and not finding a solution.

As an aside, when this offense was flying at it's highest (Chargers/Eagles/Panthers/Giants/Patriots stretch) it was when the running game was tearing it up, or at the very least maintaining a strong semblance of balance. Moore needs to be very careful abandoning it just because we get down by a little or we're only averaging 3.7 YPC.
 

Chocolate Lab

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All roads lead to Garrett, don't they? :doh
 

Simpleton

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Chris Jones is literally a top 5 interior pass-rusher in the league, so yes, he's quite good. It'll be interesting to see how McGovern looks against the Raiders, it may be a similar situation to Steele where in his first game switching sides he looked like shit before settling it.
 

p1_

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Watching our depth at WR, I felt like I was transported to 2017 watching Brice Butler, Allen Hurns and Deonte Thompson.
 

p1_

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Chris Jones is literally a top 5 interior pass-rusher in the league, so yes, he's quite good. It'll be interesting to see how McGovern looks against the Raiders, it may be a similar situation to Steele where in his first game switching sides he looked like shit before settling it.
Steele looked pretty unsettled yesterday I thought.
 

Smitty

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:lol

Sure, sure.

What you're missing is that McCarthy has been here for 1.5 years and yet you want to us to accept the premise that if we only make the 2nd round that he should face the full brunt of the fury/apathy Garrett got after being here for 10.

No, that's not fair.

I'm willing to give him another year or two to see if he can build on that, and if not, then he can go.
No, I think you are missing my point - I'm not talking about judging McCarthy (FWIW, it's not like him making the second round of the playoffs is "progress," either, though, because for him, he's won the whole thing before. But again, I'm not judging him, and I'm certainly not saying he needs to be fired if he doesn't make the Championship game).

I'm saying the team has a whole hasn't really undergone wholesale changes OTHER than the coaching staff, since 2016 or 2018. The 2016 team had a very good number of the same pieces in key places. If the names I mentioned from 2016 lose in the divisional round AGAIN, for the third time since '16, under a second and very much upgraded coaching staff, then the questions need to start coming out about that core. They aren't progressing.

Does that mean trade Dak? Of course not. I'm just saying - it's not progress for this team, this core, to make the second round of the playoffs. It's the same old shit with the Dak/Elliott/strong OL/Lead WR of either Bryant or Cooper core. Time for that roster construction to do something more than just divisional round losses followed by (or preceded by) missing the playoffs.

Otherwise it might be time to start drawing some conclusions that that group isn't going to be any better than second round playoff losers. Especially since you gave them a great head coach and they are still just that.
 

Genghis Khan

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Ok, but then you are answering your constant question as to why Garrett got year after year, because every time he had a down year, he'd have a bounce-back "progress," year. '14, '16, and '18 all would have been firings without playoffs, but each of those years represented "progress," over the previous non-playoff year.

In relation to the CORE of the team, it absolutely is substantially the same. If you are going to say that the amount of changes we've had since '18 means the team has a fresh slate, then every team has a fresh slate every year because that's just standard turnover.

Our core of veterans has remained substantially the same since '18, and has had almost the same OFFENSIVE core since 2016, which is relatively stable all things considered. Doing what the '18 team did is not progress for those veterans. And since those are the guys I'm mostly interested in evaluating (ie, I'm not asking about "progress," for the 25 new players on the roster this year), I am not counting it as progress for guys like Dak, Elliott, Cooper, Smith, Martin, etc.

I'm sorry but this is nonsense.

A new staff gets a clean slate.

And yes, Parsons, Diggs, Osa, Golston, Schultz, Biadasz, Neal, Kazee, Lamb, Urban, Watkins, Kearse, Hooker, Donavon Wilson, Steele, McGovern, Zuerlein, Anger, and anyone else I can't think of off the top of my head make this quite a different team. Not to mention Quinn, Fassell, Moore and McCarthy. Even Gregory is in a different place at this point, he's barely contributed prior to this season.

The defensive turnover just from last season has been significant, let alone from 2018.

As for Garrett, you don't give the coach credit for stepping back every time he steps forward, that's not at all the same thing we're talking about here.

I literally said if we make the playoffs this year, McCarthy will need to show additional progress next year. That's how it works.
 

p1_

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Many of this group will expect success in the playoffs, not merely an appearance and dismissal. One victory is borderline not good enough.
 

Smitty

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I think this point may need some clarification. The origin of this discussion was that I said "we've seen some pretty bad collapses around here," and that "winning the division is not enough." Geng then said "yes it's not enough but it would represent progress since it would be our first playoff appearance since 2018." I then said "it's not progress because it's the same outcome since 2016 and 2018."

McCarthy was not here in 2018. I think when I'm talking about progress here I'm referring to the franchise and team as a whole, and to a more specific extent the players, rather than the coaching staff, since the QUOTED time frame we are referencing measuring progress for, is from a time that the current staff was not here. The McCarthy administration cannot have progress measured back to 2018, they didn't get here till 2020.

Any discussion about how the team has progressed since 2018 has to be about the remaining elements since 2018.

In that sense, what I'm talking about is, are the remaining elements (which is by and large a still remaining core of key players at key positions, namely, QB, RB, 3 OL spots, 2 starting DEs, etc), from 2016, or 2018, showing progress?

To that end, it's silly to say the players who've been acquired since 2020 (almost the entire defense) hasn't "progressed," since then, since none of them were even here then.

Any discussion about progression from '16 or '18 has to be in reference to the key pieces who were here then and still are now, ie, the core.

That core, to my mind, is not progressing by making it to the divisional round and losing again.
 

Simpleton

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No, I think you are missing my point - I'm not talking about judging McCarthy (FWIW, it's not like him making the second round of the playoffs is "progress," either, though, because for him, he's won the whole thing before. But again, I'm not judging him, and I'm certainly not saying he needs to be fired if he doesn't make the Championship game).

I'm saying the team has a whole hasn't really undergone wholesale changes OTHER than the coaching staff, since 2016 or 2018. The 2016 team had a very good number of the same pieces in key places. If the names I mentioned from 2016 lose in the divisional round AGAIN, for the third time since '16, under a second and very much upgraded coaching staff, then the questions need to start coming out about that core. They aren't progressing.

Does that mean trade Dak? Of course not. I'm just saying - it's not progress for this team, this core, to make the second round of the playoffs. It's the same old shit with the Dak/Elliott/strong OL/Lead WR of either Bryant or Cooper core. Time for that roster construction to do something more than just divisional round losses followed by (or preceded by) missing the playoffs.

Otherwise it might be time to start drawing some conclusions that that group isn't going to be any better than second round playoff losers. Especially since you gave them a great head coach and they are still just that.
With a completely zoomed out macro view, sure, but the only real decision point is keeping McCarthy or not because replacing Dak isn't a realistic option.

Besides that the only real path is to keep upgrading the roster to hopefully push past that point.
 
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Genghis Khan

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I think this point may need some clarification. The origin of this discussion was that I said "we've seen some pretty bad collapses around here," and that "winning the division is not enough." Geng then said "yes it's not enough but it would represent progress since it would be our first playoff appearance since 2018." I then said "it's not progress because it's the same outcome since 2016 and 2018."

McCarthy was not here in 2018. I think when I'm talking about progress here I'm referring to the franchise and team as a whole, and to a more specific extent the players, rather than the coaching staff, since the QUOTED time frame we are referencing measuring progress for, is from a time that the current staff was not here. The McCarthy administration cannot have progress measured back to 2018, they didn't get here till 2020.

Any discussion about how the team has progressed since 2018 has to be about the remaining elements since 2018.

In that sense, what I'm talking about is, are the remaining elements (which is by and large a still remaining core of key players at key positions, namely, QB, RB, 3 OL spots, 2 starting DEs, etc), from 2016, or 2018, showing progress?

To that end, it's silly to say the players who've been acquired since 2020 (almost the entire defense) hasn't "progressed," since then, since none of them were even here then.

Any discussion about progression from '16 or '18 has to be in reference to the key pieces who were here then and still are now, ie, the core.

That core, to my mind, is not progressing by making it to the divisional round and losing again.

You're still wrong.
 
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