Eatman: Despite Losing Ware and Hatcher, Jones Certain D-Line Improves

If this is indeed the deepest draft in a decade or more and the best you do is Kony Ealy at 16, you are doing it wrong.

I don't get how someone can talk out of one side of his mouth saying pass defense feeds mostly off pass rush, then talk out the other side of his mouth saying he wants to spend first round picks on guys that can't rush the passer.

boozeman said:

If this is indeed the deepest draft in a decade or more and the best you do is Kony Ealy at 16, you are doing it wrong.

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I actually agree with you entirely on this point.

Selvie can be upgraded but there is no reason to reach for a guy like Ealy to get that marginal upgrade.

If we want a mid round quality "tough run stopper" guy that can't rush the passer a guy like Josh Mauro in the 4th or 5th would fill that role fine without blowing a first rounder on the next Robert Ayers.

Clay_Allison said:

I don't get how someone can talk out of one side of his mouth saying pass defense feeds mostly off pass rush, then talk out the other side of his mouth saying he wants to spend first round picks on guys that can't rush the passer.

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That's not "talking out of both sides of your mouth" dumbass, because I'm not advocating not getting a pass rusher.

If there was one, I'd rather him. I'd also rather an elite OT.

But I'll take a solid 8 sack DE over a DB or a WR or probably even a LB. Because that, uh, actually does help your DL.

The other part you seem to be missing is that run defense is still important.

Clay_Allison said:

Tolbert was another 4th rounder.

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And was a much better player than most of the players you find in the fourth round. I'd invest a mid-late first in Tony Tolbert if the alternative is uncertainty.

If you have a DeMarcus Ware on the table instead, that's another issue.

And just because Spencer didn't come off the field, doesn't mean he shouldn't have. He was NOT a career 8 sack guy. He was a career 5-6 sack guy and he was a waste of space as a pass rusher until 2012.

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So you're saying a career 8 sack guy would be fine then?

I have no problem with the player Spencer became late in his career here; it was the fact that it took him so long to get there that was the problem. If you could get 2011 Anthony Spencer, I'd be satisfied with that in the first round if there were no DeMarcus Wares available.

ravidubey said:

Ealy will be a fine player.

You can't use Ware as the standard of success. He's a once in a generation type. I'd be very happy getting a Patrick Kerney or Will Smith.

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You can find a pretty good number of bigger 4-3 ends who have been drafted in the past decade outside the top 10 who have had successful careers. I said the other day, Nick Perry, Chandler Jones, Adrian Clayborn, Cameron Jordan, JPP and Muhammed Wilkerson.

I see no reason to take a shit on any of those guys, and Ealy could be just as good as them. I'd be happy with that kind of guy with a pick in the first, especially after a trade down.

If you (speaking generally, not "you" as in Ravidubey) don't think Ealy is as good as those players, fine. But if you are someone that thinks that those players aren't worth firsts just because they aren't all elite pass rushers, just shut the F up because you don't know what you're talking about. Those guys are studs and just because they aren't dominant pass rushers doesn't mean they aren't great players who wouldn't be tremendous upgrades over George friggin' Selvie.

mschmidt64 said:

That's not "talking out of both sides of your mouth" dumbass, because I'm not advocating not getting a pass rusher.

If there was one, I'd rather him. I'd also rather an elite OT.

But I'll take a solid 8 sack DE over a DB or a WR or probably even a LB. Because that, uh, actually does help your DL.

The other part you seem to be missing is that run defense is still important.

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Run defense is important. It's also cheap. You don't need to spend a first round pick on a guy who holds his own and doesn't make a play. That's the difference between Chris Canty and Marcus Spears. You can get Chris Canty or Red Bryant on any street corner. 1-800-useless-against-the-pass is a number you can call in a passin league.

mschmidt64 said:

You can find a pretty good number of bigger 4-3 ends who have been drafted in the past decade outside the top 10 who have had successful careers. I said the other day, Nick Perry, Chandler Jones, Adrian Clayborn, Cameron Jordan, JPP and Muhammed Wilkerson.

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Nick Perry? Really? Clayborn?

I see no reason to take a shit on any of those guys, and Ealy could be just as good as them. I'd be happy with that kind of guy with a pick in the first, especially after a trade down.

If you (speaking generally, not "you" as in Ravidubey) don't think Ealy is as good as those players, fine. But if you are someone that thinks that those players aren't worth firsts just because they aren't all elite pass rushers, just shut the F up because you don't know what you're talking about. Those guys are studs and just because they aren't dominant pass rushers doesn't mean they aren't great players who wouldn't be tremendous upgrades over George friggin' Selvie.

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That is the rub right there. Just because we have painted ourselves into a corner with crap like Selvie and Mincey does not mean we have to shine a turd.

This draft more than any other could use the BPA with the sixteenth pick. Outside of TE and CB, I cannot think of anywhere else...OL, LB, S, WR...where we could not use a very good prospect over a good prospect.

Guys like Kony Ealy are not going to make us instantly better than some of the other ends in this class, who could be had later. Clay mentioned Mauro. There are others like Taylor Hart, Marcus Smith, Kareem Martin, Will Clarke, etc. that could do the trick as well.

We just cannot get locked into a case where we freak out because Aaron Donald is off the board and we just absolutely have to get Marinelli his "rushman" in the first round.

Clay_Allison said:

Run defense is important. It's also cheap. You don't need to spend a first round pick on a guy who holds his own and doesn't make a play. That's the difference between Chris Canty and Marcus Spears. You can get Chris Canty or Red Bryant on any street corner. 1-800-useless-against-the-pass is a number you can call in a passin league.

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I agree here. When RBs are making as much as kickers these days, I would not be placing a premium on a run stopper. We need real pass rushers, lots of them. So if it means a bunch of undersized pass rushers rotating in and out or one Kony Ealy farting around, I take the wave approach and take my chances with the run support.

And Schmitty...since you find a LDE that is bigger important, why not Martin? I think he's superior to Ealy in terms of investment and does about the same kind of stuff half the time.

Clay_Allison said:

Run defense is important. It's also cheap. You don't need to spend a first round pick on a guy who holds his own and doesn't make a play. That's the difference between Chris Canty and Marcus Spears. You can get Chris Canty or Red Bryant on any street corner. 1-800-useless-against-the-pass is a number you can call in a passin league.

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It is more likely to be cheap, but it's not necessarily so. It's a vital part of defense, so if you can get one of the better players at it, I'm all for it. And again, we're not talking Chris Canty with a career high of 4 sacks, we're talking about a Chris Canty LIKE player with more pass rush ability, in the 8 sack range.

boozeman said:

And Schmitty...since you find a LDE that is bigger important, why not Martin? I think he's superior to Ealy in terms of investment and does about the same kind of stuff half the time.

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I didn't say an LDE is more important, just ALSO important.

And if we landed a guy like him somewhere, that's also fine.

But I know Ealy and Crichton are good players in that latter half of the first or early second range.

mschmidt64 said:

It is more likely to be cheap, but it's not necessarily so. It's a vital part of defense, so if you can get one of the better players at it, I'm all for it. And again, we're not talking Chris Canty with a career high of 4 sacks, we're talking about a Chris Canty LIKE player with more pass rush ability, in the 8 sack range.

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Hmmm. Eight sacks. Sounds like Greg Ellis.

boozeman said:

Hmmm. Eight sacks. Sounds like Greg Ellis.

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If it's in lieu of drafting a HOF WR, sign me up.

boozeman said:

Hmmm. Eight sacks. Sounds like Greg Ellis.

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If you could guarantee me a Greg Ellis without the late career bitchiness I'd take him at 16 no problem.

Simpleton said:

If you could guarantee me a Greg Ellis without the late career bitchiness I'd take him at 16 no problem.

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Right, exactly.

Good analogy. I'll take that, especially if its after a trade down.

Not my first choice. I'm not saying we should be actively targeting Ealy. But I certainly could see a scenario where he's the top rated player on the board in the 20s.

mschmidt64 said:

Right, exactly.

Good analogy. I'll take that, especially if its after a trade down.

Not my first choice. I'm not saying we should be actively targeting Ealy. But I certainly could see a scenario where he's the top rated player on the board in the 20s.

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If you have to trade down then its not exactly right.

Rev said:

If you have to trade down then its not exactly right.

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Not saying it's my first choice, just acceptable.

The bottom line is you can't have Dee Ford and Jackson Jeffcoat as your starting ends. You need a guy who is a little bit of an anchor, too.

mschmidt64 said:

That's not "talking out of both sides of your mouth" dumbass, because I'm not advocating not getting a pass rusher.

If there was one, I'd rather him. I'd also rather an elite OT.

But I'll take a solid 8 sack DE over a DB or a WR or probably even a LB. Because that, uh, actually does help your DL.

The other part you seem to be missing is that run defense is still important.

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No you would not. You'd call the WR BPA...