BTB: The Henry Melton Signing

Carp said:

Spencer in no way is a competent replacement for Ware and Hatcher was better last year than Melton ever was. They is no way the DL is better as it stands now, even with Spencer.

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The DL is already completely different, and the dumping of 10 years of age will help regardless of what the stats say.

DL is an every down investment, and the stats are a payoff from overall good play. Last year Hatcher got stats from being schemed into 1-on-1 matchups at the expense of the rest of the DL. I could GAS what his stats were when the defense was so shit awful. That tells me he wasn't the impact player the stats might otherwise indicate.

Hatcher also wore down and at 32 no longer has the stamina required to play every down in the middle. And don't underestimate the other "M" signings. I like Mincey and think McClain brings solid depth.

We're at the point now where with some luck with Crawford's injury, a 1st round draft pick, and roster churn can turn the DL from a liability into a legit foundation.

L.T. Fan said:

Spence was AWOL for most last season so he shouldn't even factor into a comparison for the defense being better or worse.

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He is obviously going to be better than off the street guys you've never heard of that we were throwing out as starters last year. And I don't care if he is in a boot, hopping on one leg.

But he is supposedly healed and looking for a job. Doesn't seem to be getting one, so we shouldn't pick him up on the cheap and make use of him?

That's silly GM'ing.

hstour said:

Apples and oranges. Spencer doesn't play either of Hatcher's or Ware's position and Melton is intended to be the replacement for Hatcher.

And I never said the D-Line was better NOW. I said the team was in a better position than it was last year.

And I beg to differ on Ware. Either Ford or Tuitt should be easily able to duplicate Ware's production from last year. They won't be playing with one arm.

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Replacing Ware and Hatcher with Melton and Spencer is not an upgrade. I like Ford, so maybe he could get 6 sacks, but Tuitt is not a 4-3 DE.

hstour said:

He is obviously going to be better than off the street guys you've never heard of that we were throwing out as starters last year. And I don't care if he is in a boot, hopping on one leg.

But he is supposedly healed and looking for a job. Doesn't seem to be getting one, so we shouldn't pick him up on the cheap and make use of him?

That's silly GM'ing.

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Because if he could pass a physical he'd have already been signed by now, certainly by NY whose system he's a perfect fit for.

I can't recall a single NFL player who's ever recovered from microfracture surgery enough to play again and make even close to a meaningful impact. At that point, Spencer drains a million off the cap and a progress-stopping precious roster spot at a position Dallas needs to churn and rotate for depth.

ravidubey said:

The DL is already completely different, and the dumping of 10 years of age will help regardless of what the stats say.

DL is an every down investment, and the stats are a payoff from overall good play. Last year Hatcher got stats from being schemed into 1-on-1 matchups at the expense of the rest of the DL. I could GAS what his stats were when the defense was so shit awful. That tells me he wasn't the impact player the stats might otherwise indicate.

Hatcher also wore down and at 32 no longer has the stamina required to play every down in the middle. And don't underestimate the other "M" signings. I like Mincey and think McClain brings solid depth.

We're at the point now where with some luck with Crawford's injury, a 1st round draft pick, and roster churn can turn the DL from a liability into a legit foundation.

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I agree. McLain and Mincey were signed as rotation/backup guys. They just so happen to be hungry to make a name and get a better contract from someone.

I just don't see how the DL situation is worse.

hstour said:

He is obviously going to be better than off the street guys you've never heard of that we were throwing out as starters last year. And I don't care if he is in a boot, hopping on one leg.

But he is supposedly healed and looking for a job. Doesn't seem to be getting one, so we shouldn't pick him up on the cheap and make use of him?

That's silly GM'ing.

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Silly GMing is continuing to bring back older, injured players and expecting them to produce.

ravidubey said:

The DL is already completely different, and the dumping of 10 years of age will help regardless of what the stats say.

DL is an every down investment, and the stats are a payoff from overall good play. Last year Hatcher got stats from being schemed into 1-on-1 matchups at the expense of the rest of the DL. I could GAS what his stats were when the defense was so shit awful. That tells me he wasn't the impact player the stats might otherwise indicate.

Hatcher also wore down and at 32 no longer has the stamina required to play every down in the middle. And don't underestimate the other "M" signings. I like Mincey and think McClain brings solid depth.

We're at the point now where with some luck with Crawford's injury, a 1st round draft pick, and roster churn can turn the DL from a liability into a legit foundation.

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Replacing Ware and Hatcher with Spencer and Melton is not an upgrade. I guess the best way to rebuild a DL is to sign guys who could not play for Jax or Hou.

I'm not saying it can't be better, but we have a need for 3 more legit DL before I feel good about it. 2 DEs and at least 1 DT.

Carp said:

Replacing Ware and Hatcher with Melton and Spencer is not an upgrade. I like Ford, so maybe he could get 6 sacks, but Tuitt is not a 4-3 DE.

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DeMarcus was healthy to start camp and couldn't make it to the start of the year at full strength. DeMarcus contributed maybe half the season, two seasons in a row? Hatcher had his best season in a contract year-- good luck, Washington.

Sorry, but Melton (27), McClain(25), and Mincey(30) are an improvement over Ware(32) and Hatcher(32) at this point. We saw Hatcher's last hurrah and Ware is clearly wearing down.

I'd like to see Kony Ealy added to the mix and a stout 1-technique in round 2, 3, or 4.

BTW, you can't count on Crawford next year, but completely discounting him isn't right either.

Mincey is better than what we had, but outside of being 25 what can you honestly tell me about McClain that makes the DL better? You hope...that is all you have.

Carp said:

Mincey is better than what we had, but outside of being 25 what can you honestly tell me about McClain that makes the DL better? You hope...that is all you have.

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Better depth, clearly. The team is committed to bringing in actual experienced NFL players and not keeping the Bass's and Hayden's of the world in their back pockets while secretly praying Josh-Brent can suddenly play again.

Marinelli clearly has the ear of management and his HC, he knows what he needs, and he's getting it. He really earned my respect last year enough that I honestly think he didn't have close to the horses he needed because the idiot GM was clinging to Brent fantasies and a vision of Ware and Ratliff from 2007.

Texas_Outlaw7 said:

There has been a weird shift that occurred over the past few years. It has either been that an old dog (Jerry) is learning new tricks which is unlikely - or he has been ceding power to other members in the organization. It explains why it took 20 years to finally draft a OL in the first, let alone two in three years.

Jerry still has veto power. Jerry is still the face of the organization. But his power grip has dimmed significantly.

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When he hires a competent, experienced football man to run things, then I'll believe he's learning. Until then, he's just passing power off to his goofball son who also knows nothing about football.

Carp said:

I'm not saying it can't be better, but we have a need for 3 more legit DL before I feel good about it. 2 DEs and at least 1 DT.

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And that's really all there is to it.

Anything else is just sunshine pumping without foundation (or grossly underestimating what it takes to have a quality DL).

Carp said:

Replacing Ware and Hatcher with Melton and Spencer is not an upgrade. I like Ford, so maybe he could get 6 sacks, but Tuitt is not a 4-3 DE.

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Then you put him at the one technique. That is certainly an upgrade over Hayden.

I guess I am not focusing on Ware (who let's admit was not that good last year) and Hatcher (who was very good), but focusing on the whole situation.
But if:
Spencer can equal Ware's production of last year (not that hard)
We still have Selvie (the same but could improve)
We have Melton that probably won't equal Hatcher's 11.5 sacks, but could.
We have the opportunity to draft someone at the 1-tech that even in the 2nd round should be better than Hayden
Crawford will be back (you seem to keep excluding that)
We picked up two FAs that will provide better rotational/backup players


Jimmy had NFL starters in 6 of the 4 DL positions that he rotated. With what we have now is much closer to that than what we had last year. Being able to rotate the DL is much more important to wearing down an OL than superstars are. Even superstar D-lineman get tired in the 4th when they are playing every down.

Across the board, I see the situation as better. If for nothing else, the "position of strength" that everyone likes to roast Jerry for saying is not NEARLY as thin as it was last year.

I'd be more concerned with the thinness of the OL should the same rash of injuries hit it.

ravidubey said:

Better depth, clearly. The team is committed to bringing in actual experienced NFL players and not keeping the Bass's and Hayden's of the world in their back pockets while secretly praying Josh-Brent can suddenly play again.

Marinelli clearly has the ear of management and his HC, he knows what he needs, and he's getting it. He really earned my respect last year enough that I honestly think he didn't have close to the horses he needed because the idiot GM was clinging to Brent fantasies and a vision of Ware and Ratliff from 2007.

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Better depth is based on McClain and Mincey being upgrades...TBD. Not convinced that is the case at all. I hope, just like you do, but the overhaul had better not be done.

Carp said:

Silly GMing is continuing to bring back older, injured players and expecting them to produce.

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They seem to have changed that practice. You see Melton here and not Allen (and quite honestly, I'd bet they didn't want Allen as much. Smith had him for dinner last year when he faced him. And they assuredly had the film on that).

Carp said:

Better depth is based on McClain and Mincey being upgrades...TBD. Not convinced that is the case at all. I hope, just like you do, but the overhaul had better not be done.

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They're too hamstrung to complete the job, not unless two draft picks in the top 4 four rounds both hit and Crawford returns

hstour said:

They seem to have changed that practice. You see Melton here and not Allen (and quite honestly, I'd bet they didn't want Allen as much. Smith had him for dinner last year when he faced him. And they assuredly had the film on that).

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Bringing Spencer back is doing that though...I don't want him.

hstour said:

They seem to have changed that practice. You see Melton here and not Allen (and quite honestly, I'd bet they didn't want Allen as much. Smith had him for dinner last year when he faced him. And they assuredly had the film on that).

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Easy for you to "bet" that when one of them is likely to be asking for $10 million a year and the other was ok with $4 million.

Carp said:

Better depth is based on McClain and Mincey being upgrades...TBD. Not convinced that is the case at all. I hope, just like you do, but the overhaul had better not be done.

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I don't think it is much of a leap to say Mincey is better DE depth then anyone we had last year. McClain I agree about. Right now he is on the same level as a guy like Drake Nevis. Someone who had some hype in the draft but who has bounced around the NFL. Of course that is assuming we get a legit RE in the draft. If Mincey is a starting DE it's a whole different ball game.