A week of LGBTQ acceptance education in a middle school. Really?

L.T. Fan · Apr 3, 2016

townsend said:
That becomes the question doesn't it, if being aesthetically displeasing was the standard by which discrimination is acceptable then disabilities, skin color, or weight should be a concern. Is it okay to not hire a fat person or someone with a colostomy bag because it might affect your business? Maybe if your a Hooters, not necessarily if your an accounting firm.

I believe my comment definitely factored in a public cliente environment. No need to add the part about non public circumstances. That wasn't being posed.

Jiggyfly · Apr 3, 2016

townsend said:
White supremacy was a big part of academics. Eugenics and the White Man's Burdon were a big part of accepted mainstream philosophy into the 20th century. At a certain point it became unpopular to talk about. But segregation had all of its roots in white supremacy.

Just a few decades since then, even as the rhetoric has been deemed offensive by the mainstream. The effects of segregation, white flight, the denial of GI Bill benefits to black vets after WW2 have had long term effects that have kept blacks in positions more likely to be impoverished. Since criminal justice preys heavily on the poor, that means they're also more likely to be incarcerated.

skidadl · Apr 3, 2016

shane said:
It's getting cheaper to home school kids because of the internet. But sadly, it is not an option for many parents who are already struggling to get by.

Homeschooling can be just about free for those who try. Unfortunately poor folks are generally not resourceful when it comes to education so homeschooling wouldn't be a good idea. Besides the fact that they don't have the time to dedicate to their kids during the day

Obviously that doesn't apply to everyone. I've got a friend that grew up in tents traveling around the country with his Mormon dad that practiced polygamy. His moms did a wonderful job of homeschooling him and his siblings. All of them are now brilliant and successful.

Clay_Allison · Apr 4, 2016

skidadl said:
Homeschooling can be just about free for those who try. Unfortunately poor folks are generally not resourceful when it comes to education so homeschooling wouldn't be a good idea. Besides the fact that they don't have the time to dedicate to their kids during the day

Obviously that doesn't apply to everyone. I've got a friend that grew up in tents traveling around the country with his Mormon dad that practiced polygamy. His moms did a wonderful job of homeschooling him and his siblings. All of them are now brilliant and successful.

that's definitely creative. But for those not practicing polygamy, if both parents are working over 40 hours a week to make ends meet, it gets tricky.

Clay_Allison · Apr 4, 2016

I think an anti bullying course is a good idea for Jr High kids, who are awful. Probably should cover not picking on other races, fat kids, and people with disabilities as well as gender issues.

Cotton · Apr 4, 2016

I'm really fucking sick of people telling me I HAVE to accept a dude dressed up like a woman. If you were born with a dick, you are a man. It's that fucking simple. Just because you may have daddeh issues, or like to shop does NOT make you a woman. It never will. So, fuck you, I refuse to accept that. Call me a bigot or whatever. I don't really give a shit.

L.T. Fan · Apr 4, 2016

Iamtdg said:
I'm really fucking sick of people telling me I HAVE to accept a dude dressed up like a woman. If you were born with a dick, you are a man. It's that fucking simple. Just because you may have daddeh issues, or like to shop does NOT make you a woman. It never will. So, fuck you, I refuse to accept that. Call me a bigot or whatever. I don't really give a shit.

I have an understanding of your feelings. My position is I don't accept the behavior nor should I have to but I can accept the person. I will tell them outright that I do not agree with their actions but they have a right to practice them. I generally do encounter any problems from the individual but I catch flack from others that think I should condone their lifestyle.

E_D_Guapo · Apr 4, 2016

Teaching acceptance of other lifestyles is a good thing in general. However, there are some irritating side effects for sure. My oldest daughter is a freshman in high school and there are a ridiculous amount of kids who think they can just claim "I'm a guy" (if they are a girl) and that they want to be referred to by male pronouns and called by a different, male first name. She has a couple of friends that are like that and sometimes gets frustrated that I do not use the correct name/pronouns when talking about these girls. I decided to deal with it this way...I asked her, what do their parents call them? In both cases of her friends, the answer has been "he hasn't told them yet, but he is going to". My answer is simply, I am going to refer to these girls as girls and by their given name until their parents do otherwise. Simple as that.

The thing is, both of these girls are queer, I don't doubt that at all. Even at 14/15 I'm pretty sure they both know. And one of them is probably going to at least be a masculine lesbian. But this whole gender-fluid/"I indentify as" thing is little more than a BS attention-grab in the large majority of cases, IMO. They announce it on their Instagram and tell everyone at school and an instant outpouring of "You are so brave" and "I support you" follows.

It is pretty stupid. I have spoken to my daughter about it many times. The percentage of kids who actually, truly identify as the opposite gender is way, way lower than the percentage of kids who are currently claiming it. If someone struggles with it throughout their teens and decides in their early 20s that this is who they are, fine. But it is just so easy for these 14 & 15 year old kids to just say it (to their peers and not their parents) for the attention that it will bring. I would imagine it might be really insulting to people who legitimately deal with with this identity crisis.

Anyway, this type of thing is happening quite a lot. It is probably not quite as widespread as it seems to me right now because my daughter goes to a fine arts academy and you are naturally going to have way more gay kids in the theater, art, music, et al, programs. But it would be a lot easier for me to take seriously if they would just be gay instead of claiming that they "identify" as the opposite sex, because I think it is bullshit in most of the cases I have seen lately.

Clay_Allison · Apr 4, 2016

E_D_Guapo said:
Teaching acceptance of other lifestyles is a good thing in general. However, there are some irritating side effects for sure. My oldest daughter is a freshman in high school and there are a ridiculous amount of kids who think they can just claim "I'm a guy" (if they are a girl) and that they want to be referred to by male pronouns and called by a different, male first name. She has a couple of friends that are like that and sometimes gets frustrated that I do not use the correct name/pronouns when talking about these girls. I decided to deal with it this way...I asked her, what do their parents call them? In both cases of her friends, the answer has been "he hasn't told them yet, but he is going to". My answer is simply, I am going to refer to these girls as girls and by their given name until their parents do otherwise. Simple as that.

The thing is, both of these girls are queer, I don't doubt that at all. Even at 14/15 I'm pretty sure they both know. And one of them is probably going to at least be a masculine lesbian. But this whole gender fluid thing is little more than a BS attention-grab at this point. They announce it on their Instagram and tell everyone at school and it instant attention and an avalanche of "You are so brave" and "I support you" follows.

It is pretty stupid. I have spoken to my daughter about it many times. The percentage of kids who actually, truly identify as the opposite gender is way, way lower than the percentage of kids who are currently claiming it. If someone struggles with it throughout their teens and decides in their early 20s that this is who they are, fine. But it is just so easy for these kids to just say it that it is really insulting to people who legitimately deal with with this identity crisis.

Anyway, this type of thing is happening quite a lot. It is probably not quite as widespread as it seems to me right now because my daughter goes to a fine arts academy high school and you are naturally going to have way more gay kids in the theater, art, music, et al, programs. But it would be a lot easier for me to take seriously if they would just be gay instead of claiming that they "identify" as the opposite sex, because I think it is bullshit in most of the cases I have seen lately.

That's why I refused to dignify or take the whole Jenner thing seriously. If it was anyone else it would be different but it was a publicity stunt for the Kardashian family, nothing more.

townsend · Apr 4, 2016

E_D_Guapo said:
Teaching acceptance of other lifestyles is a good thing in general. However, there are some irritating side effects for sure. My oldest daughter is a freshman in high school and there are a ridiculous amount of kids who think they can just claim "I'm a guy" (if they are a girl) and that they want to be referred to by male pronouns and called by a different, male first name. She has a couple of friends that are like that and sometimes gets frustrated that I do not use the correct name/pronouns when talking about these girls. I decided to deal with it this way...I asked her, what do their parents call them? In both cases of her friends, the answer has been "he hasn't told them yet, but he is going to". My answer is simply, I am going to refer to these girls as girls and by their given name until their parents do otherwise. Simple as that.

The thing is, both of these girls are queer, I don't doubt that at all. Even at 14/15 I'm pretty sure they both know. And one of them is probably going to at least be a masculine lesbian. But this whole gender-fluid/"I indentify as" thing is little more than a BS attention-grab in the large majority of cases, IMO. They announce it on their Instagram and tell everyone at school and an instant outpouring of "You are so brave" and "I support you" follows.

It is pretty stupid. I have spoken to my daughter about it many times. The percentage of kids who actually, truly identify as the opposite gender is way, way lower than the percentage of kids who are currently claiming it. If someone struggles with it throughout their teens and decides in their early 20s that this is who they are, fine. But it is just so easy for these 14 & 15 year old kids to just say it (to their peers and not their parents) for the attention that it will bring. I would imagine it might be really insulting to people who legitimately deal with with this identity crisis.

Anyway, this type of thing is happening quite a lot. It is probably not quite as widespread as it seems to me right now because my daughter goes to a fine arts academy and you are naturally going to have way more gay kids in the theater, art, music, et al, programs. But it would be a lot easier for me to take seriously if they would just be gay instead of claiming that they "identify" as the opposite sex, because I think it is bullshit in most of the cases I have seen lately.

It reminds me vaguely of the people who claim to have illnesses, or the guys who dress up as soldiers for attention. Any time you try and be nice to a group, a bunch of losers play pretend for attention.

E_D_Guapo · Apr 4, 2016

townsend said:
It reminds me vaguely of the people who claim to have illnesses, or the guys who dress up as soldiers for attention. Any time you try and be nice to a group, a bunch of losers play pretend for attention.

It is a little bit like that. I don't know if it is as much of a complete fabrication in most of these cases as much of it is a stretch of the truth. From what I have seen most of these kids probably are gay, but that apparently isn't attention grabbing enough these days so they have to take it a step further by claiming they "identify" with the opposite gender.

It is hard to really blame the kids a whole lot. They are really just starting to figure out their sexuality at that point so it is easy to see how they would be a bit confused. Throw in the positive attention they know they'll get—because they know all kids their age are taught that this is the only acceptable response to this sort of thing—and it isn't too hard to see why it appears to be such a trend. What teenager isn't looking for as much attention and positive reinforcement as they can get?

It is just seems so transparently misguided in most cases that it elicits a lot of eyerolls from me.

townsend · Apr 4, 2016

I think there's some muddy waters we're transitioning into. We can say with some certainty that people are the way they're wired. That a man wouldn't say they feel like a woman, unless that were true. That their self realized identity doesn't match the gender their physique dictates. But it's kind of weird. Because skirts vs pants, pink vs blue, hairy legs vs shaved legs is not a trait inherent to gender. It's a norm dictated by society. It seems like in many ways, gender is kind of made up, it's a quick an easy way for society to sort you into a predetermined role.

I think we've spent too long pushing false narratives of gender and sexual orientation as being strictly innate, like they're installed into people by God. When I'm not sure if anything like that is true. I feel like it's more learned than we give it credit for. I think people see things in the world and tie those things to their identity. In the same way that I might see hypermasculine men and feel inadequate for not looking like them. I'm not Rambo in a dumpy body. I'm a person who based my identity on outside stimuli.

Once someone's gotten to the point where they suffer from gender dysphoria though, we as a society need to make a choice, give up on a bunch of arbitrary gender rules that are meaningless and at times toxic. Or let that person suffer in their current state of mind, that has about a 50% suicide rate as a result. Whether or not it's a lifestyle, or a naturally ingrained train, or an outright delusion isn't really important at that point.

Our responsibility as a moral society is to help salvage decent, non-harmful people, to treat everyone with empathy, even if they're weird.

townsend · Apr 4, 2016

E_D_Guapo said:
It is a little bit like that. I don't know if it is as much of a complete fabrication in most of these cases as much of it is a stretch of the truth. From what I have seen most of these kids probably are gay, but that apparently isn't attention grabbing enough these days so they have to take it a step further by claiming they "identify" with the opposite gender.

It is hard to really blame the kids a whole lot. They are really just starting to figure out their sexuality at that point so it is easy to see how they would be a bit confused. Throw in the positive attention they know they'll get—because they know all kids their age are taught that this is the only acceptable response to this sort of thing—and it isn't too hard to see why it appears to be such a trend. What teenager isn't looking for as much attention and positive reinforcement as they can get?

It is just seems so transparently misguided in most cases that it elicits a lot of eyerolls from me.

I guess teens are all kind of uncertain in their sexual and gender identities. Everything is just such a mess at that age, and you're enduring all of the hormones.

Jiggyfly · Apr 4, 2016

E_D_Guapo said:
Teaching acceptance of other lifestyles is a good thing in general. However, there are some irritating side effects for sure. My oldest daughter is a freshman in high school and there are a ridiculous amount of kids who think they can just claim "I'm a guy" (if they are a girl) and that they want to be referred to by male pronouns and called by a different, male first name. She has a couple of friends that are like that and sometimes gets frustrated that I do not use the correct name/pronouns when talking about these girls. I decided to deal with it this way...I asked her, what do their parents call them? In both cases of her friends, the answer has been "he hasn't told them yet, but he is going to". My answer is simply, I am going to refer to these girls as girls and by their given name until their parents do otherwise. Simple as that.

The thing is, both of these girls are queer, I don't doubt that at all. Even at 14/15 I'm pretty sure they both know. And one of them is probably going to at least be a masculine lesbian. But this whole gender-fluid/"I indentify as" thing is little more than a BS attention-grab in the large majority of cases, IMO. They announce it on their Instagram and tell everyone at school and an instant outpouring of "You are so brave" and "I support you" follows.

It is pretty stupid. I have spoken to my daughter about it many times. The percentage of kids who actually, truly identify as the opposite gender is way, way lower than the percentage of kids who are currently claiming it. If someone struggles with it throughout their teens and decides in their early 20s that this is who they are, fine. But it is just so easy for these 14 & 15 year old kids to just say it (to their peers and not their parents) for the attention that it will bring. I would imagine it might be really insulting to people who legitimately deal with with this identity crisis.

Anyway, this type of thing is happening quite a lot. It is probably not quite as widespread as it seems to me right now because my daughter goes to a fine arts academy and you are naturally going to have way more gay kids in the theater, art, music, et al, programs. But it would be a lot easier for me to take seriously if they would just be gay instead of claiming that they "identify" as the opposite sex, because I think it is bullshit in most of the cases I have seen lately.

Interesting info and I can totally see how that could become a thing.

It's great that you can talk to your child about this and not come off as coming down on either side.

fortsbest · Apr 4, 2016

I said it was what was coming. I also posted articles in that thread where it was happening. This is just another example of a superior feeling educated bureaucrat thinking that he knows what is better for the unwashed masses. I work in a department where they had us go through classes to teach us about alternative lifestyles and to be accepting when we had not had a problem with it in the entire time I have been here (over 24 years). My point is, as with all radicals, tolerance is not enough and never is. It isn't enough that agendas are pushed through the college environment, they are filtering down into lower education. More of this BS is coming and for you to say otherwise is you just being you.

fortsbest · Apr 4, 2016

townsend said:
Segregation was not that long ago. In that timeline, white supremacy was implicit. Before it, it was dogmatic. 100 years after slavery ended there was still policy drafted and politicians of prominence that championed white supremacy. It wasn't in your generation, but it was in the generation that made you.

I'm a white man too, one that grew up with very little privilege. All the cops in Hondo Tx were Mexican, so being pale didn't really help me at all. So I bristle at times when I get grouped in with WASPs that were raised in luxurious bubbles. That whiteness is considered synonymous with upper class.

But also don't think for a second that there isn't a totally different legal system set up to streamline blacks into prison. That the implication of white supremacy doesn't taint every war on drugs and every "tough on crime" legislation. That the white people who are hurt by these things are collateral damage in a war on blacks that federal, state, and local governments have been waging since the day slavery was abolished.

Wow, the white guilt folk really have their hooks into you dude.

fortsbest · Apr 4, 2016

This thread actually stirred up better conversation than I thought it might. Thanks guys.

townsend · Apr 4, 2016

pdom said:
So if the lgbt kids aren't getting stuffed into lockers and trashed dumped on, who are kids picking on these days?

Fatties

skidadl · Apr 4, 2016

It has become popular to be gay these days. It seems moreso with girls in my experience.

E_D_Guapo · Apr 5, 2016

fortsbest said:
I said it was what was coming. I also posted articles in that thread where it was happening. This is just another example of a superior feeling educated bureaucrat thinking that he knows what is better for the unwashed masses. I work in a department where they had us go through classes to teach us about alternative lifestyles and to be accepting when we had not had a problem with it in the entire time I have been here (over 24 years). My point is, as with all radicals, tolerance is not enough and never is. It isn't enough that agendas are pushed through the college environment, they are filtering down into lower education. More of this BS is coming and for you to say otherwise is you just being you.

Yeah, except that the bullying and harassment of gay/trans kids has been a pretty big problem in high schools, to the point of pushing some kids to suicide. There is nothing wrong with giving kids the message that it is not OK to do that and that people should be accepted for who they are.

The message itself is a good one. It just gets warped and used to push different agendas by different people. I can think of other ideals that fit this description.

A week of LGBTQ acceptance education in a middle school. Really?

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