Abortion... yeah or nah?

townsend

Banned
Joined
Apr 11, 2013
Messages
5,377
Did it ever occur to you that a great deal of these folks are a group of genuine and heartfelt individuals who have compassion for the unborn child.
I think that absolutely exists, but I think in the same way PETA has compassion for abused animals, it doesn't validate the misinformation, propaganda and extremism. I think there a great deal of tolerated extremism in pro life camps. Which is why abortion clinics face so much violence on a daily basis.

I do not believe that most pro lifers are anti woman, but I believe that most people who still believe that women should be forced into submissive roles are anti abortion, and that some anti woman sentiment is inextricably tied to a lot of anti abortion rhetoric. (Such as the did the crime pay the time outlook)
 

Smitty

DCC 4Life
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
22,488
I think you are slightly overstating the extremism of the pro life crowd.

I will cede that the most realistic compromise on this issue should be some sort of pretty strict limit, though not blanket ban, on abortions after a certain point near the first trimester barrier, to be determined based on scientific general evidence of development of a fetus by week X.

PS if you want to see real militant extremism, suggest to certain pro-abortion advocates that we should consider some sort of above ban. They'll react like you just brutally murdered their parents on live tv or something.
 
Last edited:

townsend

Banned
Joined
Apr 11, 2013
Messages
5,377
I think you are slightly overstating the extremism of the pro life crowd.

I will cede that the most realistic compromise on this issue should be some sort of pretty strict limit, though not blanket ban, on abortions after a certain point near the first trimester barrier, to be determined based on scientific general evidence of development of a fetus by week X.
I agree with you in principle, as long as the regulations were being written by people with an expertise in obstetrics and gynecology.
 

Smitty

DCC 4Life
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
22,488
I'll also say this. Overturning Roe v. Wade gets a lot of panic out of pro abortion advocates.

Overturning that case should happen, as there is no constitutional protection on this issue and its status as law harms and impedes progress on debates among the states on thoughtful compromises like the one suggested above, because it implies abortion as a right not to be infringed at all by the states, instead of allowing states to tinker with these restrictions.
 

townsend

Banned
Joined
Apr 11, 2013
Messages
5,377
I'll also say this. Overturning Roe v. Wade gets a lot of panic out of pro abortion advocates.

Overturning that case should happen, as there is no constitutional protection on this issue and its status as law harms and impedes progress on debates among the states on thoughtful compromises like the one suggested above, because it implies abortion as a right not to be infringed at all by the states, instead of allowing states to tinker with these restrictions.
this is why states use back doors to outlaw abortion with "safety regulations". In a perfect world abortion wouldn't need to be considered a right, because it should be an exceptional measure that results from unforeseen failures of contraception, not just a thing that happens after he promised to pull out.

i will credit those of the pro life movement that push for education and birth control. Since the Chrisitan right is largely responsible for so called "abstinence only" education. Pro lifers who actually want sex Ed and contraception available don't get enough attention or credit.
 

L.T. Fan

I'm Easy If You Are
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
21,689
I think that absolutely exists, but I think in the same way PETA has compassion for abused animals, it doesn't validate the misinformation, propaganda and extremism. I think there a great deal of tolerated extremism in pro life camps. Which is why abortion clinics face so much violence on a daily basis.

I do not believe that most pro lifers are anti woman, but I believe that most people who still believe that women should be forced into submissive roles are anti abortion, and that some anti woman sentiment is inextricably tied to a lot of anti abortion rhetoric. (Such as the did the crime pay the time outlook)
But you need to separate the extremists from the compassionate. The extremists are a minority and do not represent most.
 

townsend

Banned
Joined
Apr 11, 2013
Messages
5,377
But you need to separate the extremists from the compassionate. The extremists are a minority and do not represent most.
While that's true, I think the problem is that the prevailing voice in the anti-abortion camp is the vocal minority of extremists. This is also true of the pro abortion crowd.
 

L.T. Fan

I'm Easy If You Are
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
21,689
While that's true, I think the problem is that the prevailing voice in the anti-abortion camp is the vocal minority of extremists. This is also true of the pro abortion crowd.
But that is true of every controversial situation. They are the target of all the attention but they are a far cry of being representative of the legitimate activist.
 

fortsbest

DCC 4Life
Joined
Apr 8, 2013
Messages
3,733
I feel like the abortion issue has been so screwed up with extreme rhetoric from either side that it's become difficult to have an non hyperbolic conversation about it.

To me the most important distinction is that a sperm isn't, a zygote, which isn't an embryo, which isn't a fetus, which isn't a new born. Each have relative levels of humanity compared to the other. (The new born distinction being important because at that point the child's life is not dependent upon the mother's.) If someone miscarries in their first trimester it's not as tragic as if they lost their child after birth. No one (sane) really believes that an abortion clinic is the same as a baby execution facility.
That may well be the case in the first few weeks of a pregnancy where it is debatable if a pregnancy actually exists, but I can promise you that after my wife had her miscarriage after 2 months it was as devastating to her as the one she had later after our only daughter was born. I'm a pessimist by nature so having expected bad things I got it so was hurt but not nearly as much as she was.



On the same note saying that something is not a baby just because it hasn't passed through the arch, so to speak, is also ridiculous. But I've yet to hear someone defend late term abortion by saying that those don't count as babies. Mostly what I hear about late terms is that it's almost always due to medical necessity, and since doctors are better at determining what is medically necessary than politicians, these kinds of things should be left to professionals.
The pro-abortion crowd absolutely consider it a blob of cells even later than the first trimester which is why it is so hard to conceive of people especially politicians fighting so hard for no limitations on abortion. It is so freaking retarded.
 

fortsbest

DCC 4Life
Joined
Apr 8, 2013
Messages
3,733
I have had people ask me "Was it hard deciding to keep your child?". Has taken everything I had not to throat punch them. We didn't know ahead of time, but even if we had it wouldn't have made a difference. She is still our child.
When Liz was pregnant with Lexie, it was our third pregnancy. We had early ultrasounds to see how things were going but we didn't want to know sex. We also didn't do any of the tests for abnormalities because it wouldn't have mattered so I'm right there with you sir. Lexie is the only one of the prospective 5 we would have had that made it and we are blessed she came out healthy, but again, it wouldn't have mattered.
 

townsend

Banned
Joined
Apr 11, 2013
Messages
5,377
That may well be the case in the first few weeks of a pregnancy where it is debatable if a pregnancy actually exists, but I can promise you that after my wife had her miscarriage after 2 months it was as devastating to her as the one she had later after our only daughter was born. I'm a pessimist by nature so having expected bad things I got it so was hurt but not nearly as much as she was.
I'm genuinely sorry for your loss. I haven't ever gone through something like that, but I'm sure it was devastating.




The pro-abortion crowd absolutely consider it a blob of cells even later than the first trimester which is why it is so hard to conceive of people especially politicians fighting so hard for no limitations on abortion. It is so freaking retarded.
the thing about the pro abortion crowd is its pretty diverse. I think it's appropriate at will in the first trimester and by medical necessity thereafter. Some people say no rules because they're libertarian and they don't like the precident of the government dictating how medical procedures be performed. I think there is a lot of extreme emotion on both sides of this issue. But I think what most people want is common sense rules, that aren't too restrictive or too permissive.
 

Jiggyfly

Banned
Joined
Apr 8, 2013
Messages
9,220
That may well be the case in the first few weeks of a pregnancy where it is debatable if a pregnancy actually exists, but I can promise you that after my wife had her miscarriage after 2 months it was as devastating to her as the one she had later after our only daughter was born. I'm a pessimist by nature so having expected bad things I got it so was hurt but not nearly as much as she was.




The pro-abortion crowd absolutely consider it a blob of cells even later than the first trimester which is why it is so hard to conceive of people especially politicians fighting so hard for no limitations on abortion. It is so freaking retarded.
What politician is fighting for no limitations on abortions?
 

Angrymesscan

DCC 4Life
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
3,796
Playing devils advocate here, but a person who would go through an abortion after the first trimester for non-medical reasons is someone I'd rather would not reproduce in the first place...
 

townsend

Banned
Joined
Apr 11, 2013
Messages
5,377
Playing devils advocate here, but a person who would go through an abortion after the first trimester for non-medical reasons is someone I'd rather would not reproduce in the first place...
Well presumably they feel the same way. Still in a world that's overpopulated as hell (kinda literally) it makes a lot of economic sense to abort if you don't want a kid. What kind of life is that for a child, to be raised by a financially ruined parent who never even wanted them, or worse given to the system.

If I managed to get my partner pregnant I'd be lobbying hard for an abortion, although I'd be doing it while she was starting the car to get to the abortion clinic.
 

Cowboysrock55

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
52,456
Well presumably they feel the same way. Still in a world that's overpopulated as hell (kinda literally) it makes a lot of economic sense to abort if you don't want a kid. What kind of life is that for a child, to be raised by a financially ruined parent who never even wanted them, or worse given to the system.

If I managed to get my partner pregnant I'd be lobbying hard for an abortion, although I'd be doing it while she was starting the car to get to the abortion clinic.
From a practical matter that makes sense. But then again so does killing off everyone who is fully disabled and not working (We need to keep the population going so I'll leave the stay at home moms alone for now).




Just to make it clear in no way am I advocating that. If someone wants to have a first trimester abortion I don't feel like it is my place to judge. Just as long as my tax dollars aren't paying for it, or paying for the clinic where it is taking place.
 

townsend

Banned
Joined
Apr 11, 2013
Messages
5,377
From a practical matter that makes sense. But then again so does killing off everyone who is fully disabled and not working (We need to keep the population going so I'll leave the stay at home moms alone for now).




Just to make it clear in no way am I advocating that. If someone wants to have a first trimester abortion I don't feel like it is my place to judge. Just as long as my tax dollars aren't paying for it, or paying for the clinic where it is taking place.
I think the crux of the matter is when we determine something deserves human rights. Because just a living thing doesn't make your life sacred. Most people (and presumable the rite majority of pro lifers) eat the shit out of some pretty developed and intelligent life forms.

To me brain development is probably the key. I don't know enough about that field yet (in 3 years I likely will) but at a certain point when a fetuses brain allows it to perceive things, that's when I'd say it's human.
 

L.T. Fan

I'm Easy If You Are
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
21,689
I think the crux of the matter is when we determine something deserves human rights. Because just a living thing doesn't make your life sacred. Most people (and presumable the rite majority of pro lifers) eat the shit out of some pretty developed and intelligent life forms.

To me brain development is probably the key. I don't know enough about that field yet (in 3 years I likely will) but at a certain point when a fetuses brain allows it to perceive things, that's when I'd say it's human.
Is the issue when a fetus is perceptive and considered human or is the question when does life commence. They aren't the same but I have heard the issue debated more about life than being human.
 

townsend

Banned
Joined
Apr 11, 2013
Messages
5,377
Is the issue when a fetus is perceptive and considered human or is the question when does life commence. They aren't the same but I have heard the issue debated more about life than being human.
From a scientific since life never didn't exist. Sperm are alive.

The question becomes when is it definable as being more than just a living thing, when is it approximate to the sentient creature we should universally recognized as sacred, and so sacred that we have to suppress someone else's rights to protect it.
 

L.T. Fan

I'm Easy If You Are
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
21,689
From a scientific since life never didn't exist. Sperm are alive.

The question becomes when is it definable as being more than just a living thing, when is it approximate to the sentient creature we should universally recognized as sacred, and so sacred that we have to suppress someone else's rights to protect it.
With who is that the question?
 
Top Bottom