50 dead in mass shooting at Gay Night Club in Orlando

L.T. Fan

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It was the thing that made him feel like he mattered, same way Dylann Roof thought white supremacy did, or the Oregan shooter thought being an atheist did. The issue isn't the man's religion which he didn't fucking practice, it was getting to feel like he was part of something bigger.

It's not practicing members of local Mosques that do this shit, it's lonely man children.
Local mosques are essentially utilized by, for lack of a better term , orthodox Muslims. The extremist generally don't affiliate with them but are usually hooked up with a cell somewhere. I think most of us realize that the Muslim religion is not unlike some of the Christian religions as far as their general approach to being domesticated. They aren't in favor of creating wars on ideologies that are prohibitive in their beliefs. The extremists however take the position that if something is prohibitive the way to deal with it is to physically destroy it.
 

townsend

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Local mosques are essentially utilized by, for lack of a better term , orthodox Muslims. The extremist generally don't affiliate with them but are usually hooked up with a cell somewhere. I think most of us realize that the Muslim religion is not unlike some of the Christian religions as far as their general approach to being domesticated. They aren't in favor of creating wars on ideologies that are prohibitive in their beliefs. The extremists however take the position that if something is prohibitive the way to deal with it is to physically destroy it.
I bet you would similarly see that most of the abortion clinic bombers etc who think they act in the interest of Christianity are also not active members of any Christian community.

I think there's a specific balance of something to live for/something to die for that these lone wolfs have to hit, where they have to find some cause they think they should be killing people in the name of, (which can literally be anything that you could loosely describe as being one side or another of a perceived conflict) but not have enough family or friends that trigger preservation instincts in human nature.
 

L.T. Fan

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I bet you would similarly see that most of the abortion clinic bombers etc who think they act in the interest of Christianity are also not active members of any Christian community.

I think there's a specific balance of something to live for/something to die for that these lone wolfs have to hit, where they have to find some cause they think they should be killing people in the name of, (which can literally be anything that you could loosely describe as being one side or another of a perceived conflict) but not have enough family or friends that trigger preservation instincts in human nature.
Probably so but at the same time I doubt that a bomber of clinics would be part of a Christian congregation. Chances are they would affiliate themselves with like extremist. There are extremists in anything but they are the exceptions and do not or should not be compared as being representative of the legitimate group. To use them as an example of something other than a twisted individual is wrong. That is the point I would make and would also take exception to. The congregation I am affiliated has varying views on abortions but none of them believe in bombing a clinic.
 

Genghis Khan

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It was the thing that made him feel like he mattered, same way Dylann Roof thought white supremacy did, or the Oregan shooter thought being an atheist did. The issue isn't the man's religion which he didn't fucking practice, it was getting to feel like he was part of something bigger.

It's not practicing members of local Mosques that do this shit, it's lonely man children.
You are missing the facilitator here.
 

Genghis Khan

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To clarify: white supremacy often embraces religion, but it is not its raison detre.

White supremacy is rightly condemned in the mainstream.

Atheism has no core tenants and therefore cannot be said to condone or facilitate terrorism.

Islam... eh. There sure seems to be a lot of hate and morally repugnant tenants in that camp. They sure seemto incubate this type of thought and behavior.
 

NoDak

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You are missing the facilitator here.
Considering this guy called 911 and pledged his allegiance to ISIS before the attack, and then was heard shouting 'Allahu Akbar' during the shooting, yeah... I'd say there is a common root to his religion. Also, the fact he chose a gay club as his target is telling.
 

townsend

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Probably so but at the same time I doubt that a bomber of clinics would be part of a Christian congregation. Chances are they would affiliate themselves with like extremist. There are extremists in anything but they are the exceptions and do not or should not be compared as being representative of the legitimate group. To use them as an example of something other than a twisted individual is wrong. That is the point I would make and would also take exception to. The congregation I am affiliated has varying views on abortions but none of them believe in bombing a clinic.
I think that parallels mainstream Islam as well. Muslims in this country have, as far as I can tell, universally condemned these attacks. Performed by people outside of any practicing congregation.

I'm sure there are likewise lonely non practicing Christians or small extremist pockets that are pro abortion clinic bombing, but are not representative of the Christian population. Every once in a while you'll see some dummy or another blame a tragedy on God's judgment or celebrate it outright, but Christians as a whole recognize that they're morons.
 

Genghis Khan

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Considering this guy called 911 and pledged his allegiance to ISIS before the attack, and then was heard shouting 'Allahu Akbar' during the shooting, yeah... I'd say there is a common root to his religion. Also, the fact he chose a gay club as his target is telling.
Ayuh. No doubt this guy was disturbed. But there should also be no doubt that his religion gave him an outlet and helped crystallize his psychosis.
 

townsend

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Considering this guy called 911 and pledged his allegiance to ISIS before the attack, and then was heard shouting 'Allahu Akbar' during the shooting, yeah... I'd say there is a common root to his religion. Also, the fact he chose a gay club as his target is telling.
The Oregon shooter targeted religious people, as did the columbine shooters. Their shootings weren't do to religion, it was part of a self serving narrative that cast them as heroes, which can be constructed from any religion or lack thereof.

Timothy McVeigh thought he was at war with the fed, the LaFayette shooter thought he was fighting feminism, the planned parenthood shooter thought he was saving babies, Dylann Roof thought he was saving white women from black men.

It's not about religion, it's about loneliness and narcissism, and it can come from any background.
 

townsend

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To clarify: white supremacy often embraces religion, but it is not its raison detre.

White supremacy is rightly condemned in the mainstream.

Atheism has no core tenants and therefore cannot be said to condone or facilitate terrorism.

Islam... eh. There sure seems to be a lot of hate and morally repugnant tenants in that camp. They sure seemto incubate this type of thought and behavior.
There's this assumption that somehow Dogma leads these people where they're going. It doesn't. Assholes decide what they believe and adopt a dogma to match. Athiests spout bigoted supremacist bullshit, because the assumption that they're superior was innate, and they use anti religious rhetoric to color in the rationale. The Orlando shooter was a piece of human waste that wanted to kill gay people, and he sought out a version of a religion he really didn't practice to do it in the name of.
 

NoDak

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The Oregon shooter targeted religious people, as did the columbine shooters. Their shootings weren't do to religion, it was part of a self serving narrative that cast them as heroes, which can be constructed from any religion or lack thereof.

Timothy McVeigh thought he was at war with the fed, the LaFayette shooter thought he was fighting feminism, the planned parenthood shooter thought he was saving babies, Dylann Roof thought he was saving white women from black men.

It's not about religion, it's about loneliness and narcissism, and it can come from any background.
That's nice. But I was talking about this dude. Because the question was about whether or not THIS shooting was motivated by religion.

I do find it strange that with your rock solid knowledge and information on these prior cases and what goes on in their minds that you're just a message board crusader and not an FBI profiler. You really should put your talents to work for the betterment of mankind.
 

Genghis Khan

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There's this assumption that somehow Dogma leads these people where they're going. It doesn't. Assholes decide what they believe and adopt a dogma to match. Athiests spout bigoted supremacist bullshit, because the assumption that they're superior was innate, and they use anti religious rhetoric to color in the rationale. The Orlando shooter was a piece of human waste that wanted to kill gay people, and he sought out a version of a religion he really didn't practice to do it in the name of.
I don't buy that. You are completely ignoring the fact that Islam is constantly a safe haven for these types of people, and in most cases provides fuel for their hate and vitriol. And in many cases manufactures it.
 

townsend

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I don't buy that. You are completely ignoring the fact that Islam is constantly a safe haven for these types of people, and in most cases provides fuel for their hate and vitriol. And in many cases manufactures it.
I would say it's not a safe haven for this type of person, a native born, antisocial lone wolf spree shooter, who had no communication or support from any form of Islamic extremist group. Obviously extremism among religious based terrorist organizations is a thing, but that's not this guy's deal.

If this was an Islam thing we wouldn't see people from all other walks of life doing it, we'd be seeing devout Muslims acting out acts of terror disproportionately compared to young lonely men from other religious and ethnic backgrounds.
 

townsend

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That's nice. But I was talking about this dude. Because the question was about whether or not THIS shooting was motivated by religion.

I do find it strange that with your rock solid knowledge and information on these prior cases and what goes on in their minds that you're just a message board crusader and not an FBI profiler. You really should put your talents to work for the betterment of mankind.
Sorry for my well studied response, I guess I should just be quoting unsubstantiated reports that the shooter shouted "Allah hu Ackbar"

I guess knowing what the hell you're talking about isn't nearly as important as quoting Trump tweets.

Seriously, what's your point here? That I should know less, or not contribute to a conversation on a message board?
 
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NoDak

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Sorry for my well studied response, I guess I should just be quoting unsubstantiated reports that the shooter quoted "Allah hu Ackbar"

I guess knowing what the hell you're talking about isn't nearly as important as quoting Trump tweets.

Seriously, what's your point here? That I should know less, or not contribute to a conversation on a message board?
Well studied response? :lol Ok. If you say so.

Where did I, or anyone for that matter, mention Trump or even politics at all? And no, nobody is telling you that you can't contribute to a conversation on a message board. The man is not trying to keep you down. But when you make statements where you claim to know just what a person's motivation was or what was going through their mind, you look like a moron. And you do this a lot.

Ever wonder why you're a punchline? This might give you a clue.
 

L.T. Fan

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There's this assumption that somehow Dogma leads these people where they're going. It doesn't. Assholes decide what they believe and adopt a dogma to match. Athiests spout bigoted supremacist bullshit, because the assumption that they're superior was innate, and they use anti religious rhetoric to color in the rationale. The Orlando shooter was a piece of human waste that wanted to kill gay people, and he sought out a version of a religion he really didn't practice to do it in the name of.
How can you just arbitrarily spit out pronouncements like this with no basis of anything to substantiate it?
 

Genghis Khan

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I would say it's not a safe haven for this type of person, a native born, antisocial lone wolf spree shooter, who had no communication or support from any form of Islamic extremist group. Obviously extremism among religious based terrorist organizations is a thing, but that's not this guy's deal.

If this was an Islam thing we wouldn't see people from all other walks of life doing it, we'd be seeing devout Muslims acting out acts of terror disproportionately compared to young lonely men from other religious and ethnic backgrounds.
"Native born" to Afghanistan immigrants. Let's not pretend there's a big disconnect.

We ARE seeing disproportionate devout Muslims doing this, that's the point.
 

Jiggyfly

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This attack wasn't really about religion anyway. It was about another weird asshole who had nothing going on in his life and snapped. I think young men in this country are in trouble. In a world where being an adult man of value seems to be further and further out of reach these days, I think men are having a crisis of identity.

They spent their entire childhood being told they're the chosen one, then they can't even figure out how to live on their own, get a decently paying job, or find someone to love them. There's a reason why all these terrorists are home grown lone wolf types. They're cast offs that have stewed in their anger so long it possesses them.
Yeah the coddling of youth is coming back to bite us.

It's doubly bad in this shooters culture because the males are pretty much worshipped growing up.
 

Jiggyfly

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To clarify: white supremacy often embraces religion, but it is not its raison detre.

White supremacy is rightly condemned in the mainstream.

Atheism has no core tenants and therefore cannot be said to condone or facilitate terrorism.

Islam... eh. There sure seems to be a lot of hate and morally repugnant tenants in that camp. They sure seemto incubate this type of thought and behavior.
This is a very shallow look at the religion, There are billions of Muslims in the world and the vast majority live peaceful lives.
 

Jiggyfly

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"Native born" to Afghanistan immigrants. Let's not pretend there's a big disconnect.

We ARE seeing disproportionate devout Muslims doing this, that's the point.
This guy was not devout he was a self-aggrandizing blowhard who wanted to look bigger than he was.

Shia is the dominant Islamic faction in Afghanistan and ISIS is Sunni so it's hard to inject that part of his background into the conversation.
 
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