'Duck Dynasty': Phil Robertson anti-gay sermon surfaces

Genghis Khan

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People do convert from both to become Christians. In fact Jesus was a Jew as was the apostle Paul, the disciples and all the main players in the New Testament. I believe you asked your question with good intentions, but there isn't anyway any of us can answer it because that isn't our experience. Just as it would be impossible for a Muslim or Jew to answer. We all are going to answer yes because our faith is dear to us.

People of other religions are still converting to Christianity, Judaism and Islam today.
Jesus and the gang never converted so I don't see where pointing out that they were Jewish speaks to EDG's point at all.

People do convert but I doubt it's all that common, particularly when a person's belief are strongly entrenched. I was a Christian my entire life but when I came to question Christianity I didn't look for another religion but rather abandoned religion entirely.
 

Genghis Khan

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That's the whole point. You believe what you choose to believe but condem someone else for doing the same thing. My position is I can't prove it just accept it. That seems to be the same position you are taking so where's the beef?
You can't prove that we aren't all just a figment of the over active imagination of a hyper intelligent shade of the color yellow, so where's the beef?

I'm not condemning anyone by the way, I am condemning the religion itself. Believe what you want to believe but as an intelligent human being I can call bullshit when I see it.

And yes, you can prove to a much higher degree of certainty that original sin doesn't exist than you can prove that it does.

I used to take a lot of things on faith like a good Christian and bury my head in the sand when anything contradicted it. But over the years I've seen far too many things that can only be reconciled by concluding that either god is an immense asshole or he doesn't exist at all. I'm not sure which is true but logic would have to lean towards the latter.
 

L.T. Fan

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You can't prove that we aren't all just a figment of the over active imagination of a hyper intelligent shade of the color yellow, so where's the beef?

I'm not condemning anyone by the way, I am condemning the religion itself. Believe what you want to believe but as an intelligent human being I can call bullshit when I see it.

And yes, you can prove to a much higher degree of certainty that original sin doesn't exist than you can prove that it does.

I used to take a lot of things on faith like a good Christian and bury my head in the sand when anything contradicted it. But over the years I've seen far too many things that can only be reconciled by concluding that either god is an immense asshole or he doesn't exist at all. I'm not sure which is true but logic would have to lean towards the latter.
So believe what you will and allow me to do the same. I have nothing to prove to anyone.
 

Genghis Khan

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I know it comes down to faith. You have to have that faith or your religion is worthless. Other religions have just as much faith as yours though and it's just as real to them.
why is religion worthless without faith, though? If you really think about it, there's no valid reason why a god can't knock on your door and say, "Hi. I'm god. Worship me."

If you think about it, some of the major figures of Christianity, including Moses, Abraham, Noah, Adam, Eve, and Jesus himself all had direct evidence of god's existence at some point and didn't have to rely on faith.
 

Genghis Khan

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That's why I don't consider myself an atheist. I can't claim to "know" for sure that there is no God any more than someone can claim to "know" for sure that there is. There is a difference between believing something and knowing it. That's why I find it humorous when people of faith claim they "know" they're right. Wrong. You believe it, you don't know it. You might be convinced by your strong belief that it is fact, but it's still just faith-based belief.
Except I can say with certainty that there are things that happen and things that exist that show pretty conclusively that the core tenets of religion (or at least the Abraham religions) are wrong.

For example, the well worn question of why bad things are allowed to happen even to good people. Even to innocent people. The standard responses are either free will, sin, or original sin. But that's bullshit. Why might someone get major burns in a fire? Why might a newborn baby get fried in microwave? Why might a spouse get physically or mentally abused?

I don't think it's just to answer by saying the victim did something (sin) to deserve it. Nor does it even matter if the victim did some lesser offense, because to punish sin with suffering is cruel.

So the only logical answers are: god is an asshole and doesn't care about human suffering even though he made humans and gave them a destructive nature in the first place, or he is powerless to stop suffering (and therefore not omnipotent and by extension he is something other than a god), or he doesn't exist.

I don't see any other way to reconcile these types of things.
 
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Genghis Khan

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The way I view Christian logic at this point In my life (can't take credit for this but it rang true for me when I read it):

A man hears a knock at his door and says, "Who is it?"

"It's Jesus, let me in," says the knocker.

"Why?" the man asks.

Jesus replies, "So that I can save you."

"From what?" the man asks.

"From what I'm going to do to you if you don't let me in," says Jesus.
 

Genghis Khan

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To be clear, though, I do believe there is something bigger and way more powerful than us out there. I don't believe this life is just for nothing. I don't believe we just die and our souls evaporate. Reincarnation would be the closest to what I believe probably happens.

What makes you think that there's a soul, though? To be sure, there's a consciousness, a sense of self, but that's not what is usually thought of as a soul.

The one thing I can fathom is that our thoughts and consciousness are manifestations of energy, and I can't think of anything in the world of physics that would suggest that energy would dissipate or die away without being absorbed into something else. Whether that something else has a semblance of awareness is questionable.
 

Genghis Khan

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Considering the Bible was written by man, wouldn't the writer of the specific book you're referencing at the time be the mediator?
Yes, especially when you consider what was included and what was excluded was decided by men.
 

Genghis Khan

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Well of course homosexuals are sinners. Indeed we all are sinners. We are conceived and born in sin. The isn't one person who alive except sinners. That concept eludes most people. The difference is some believe they have been redeemed and as a result have accepted a plan and way of life toward that end. The thing that makes some of the redeemed come across as unbearable is that they become finger pointers rather than beacons. But yes we are all sinners at birth.
So I am a sinner at birth because of something that I had absolutely nothing to do with, but I have to atone for it anyway? That's just wacky to me.

"Adam and Eve did things that they weren't supposed to do. Now say your sorry, Bob."

Huh?
 

skidadl

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The way I view Christian logic at this point In my life (can't take credit for this but it rang true for me when I read it):

A man hears a knock at his door and says, "Who is it?"

"It's Jesus, let me in," says the knocker.

"Why?" the man asks.

Jesus replies, "So that I can save you."

"From what?" the man asks.

"From what I'm going to do to you if you don't let me in," says Jesus.
I totally disagree with this. The punishment is actually what the person desires anyway - to be separated from God. God isn't in hell. He doesn't sit there and shove knives in your eyes for eternity. He turns you over to the one who wants you anyway. What's the big deal anyway? You don't want to be saved? Fine then, you aren't, wish granted. In my mind that is the opposite of cruelty. Here's your two options...which one do you want?

At some point you will face the option of disciplining your child. Discipline is the purest form of love that you can find. If you do not protect your child by teaching them what will harm them or things that they can do that will harm others then you just flat out do not love your child. If your sweet innocent child grows up and steals something I assume that you will chose a punishment that will deter that behavior. If you don't then most likely he or she will not learn their lesson. What are the mt common forms of punishment? Physical pain, separation from others, loss of privileges, shame...the typical ones. Hmm, sounds familiar. Do you consider fathers that discipline their kids asholes? What about the judge that throws the book at a repeat offender? In my mind the judge that sentences someone to life in prison isn't the one that is really giving the punishment. It is the offender what chose that. What's the big deal? Someone doesn't want to follow the rules gets to chose their destiny. You can find prisons filled with people who are mad at the system and the judge. To the law abiding citzen that seems ridiculous. Tho folks chose their fate.

Sorry for the lame rant...it makes perfect sense to me.

As far as your take on the innocence of your child ... a baby is the most selfish thing you will find. Your child has zero care for others around. As he/she grows selfishness will only grow. If you don't guide your child you will create a hellion. Surely you've seen them around you.
 

skidadl

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So I am a sinner at birth because of something that I had absolutely nothing to do with, but I have to atone for it anyway? That's just wacky to me.

"Adam and Eve did things that they weren't supposed to do. Now say your sorry, Bob."

Huh?
Not at all. You get get separated from God for your own sins.
 

townsend

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So if this Phil guy was a Muslim, and espoused that verse 4:34 of the Quran said that you should be able to beat your wife if she's being disobedient, I wonder if anyone on the God and Guns side of the aisle would want anything but his immediate release. After all it's an outdated and aggressively hateful belief that has no place in modern society, and freedom of religion doesn't mean the crap you believe isn't offensive.
 

EZ22

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So if this Phil guy was a Muslim, and espoused that verse 4:34 of the Quran said that you should be able to beat your wife if she's being disobedient, I wonder if anyone on the God and Guns side of the aisle would want anything but his immediate release. After all it's an outdated and aggressively hateful belief that has no place in modern society, and freedom of religion doesn't mean the crap you believe isn't offensive.
Duh, we don't support fake religions like that :lol
 

skidadl

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So if this Phil guy was a Muslim, and espoused that verse 4:34 of the Quran said that you should be able to beat your wife if she's being disobedient, I wonder if anyone on the God and Guns side of the aisle would want anything but his immediate release. After all it's an outdated and aggressively hateful belief that has no place in modern society, and freedom of religion doesn't mean the crap you believe isn't offensive.

I didn't comment much on the Duck stuff in this thread to start with. For an even better comparison he never really needs to quote the Quran to find a scripture like that. He can find one in the old testament. In which case I would have said he's a dumb ass for doing either.
 

Cotton

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I was wondering when Geng was going to chime in. :lol
 

Cotton

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What makes you think that there's a soul, though? To be sure, there's a consciousness, a sense of self, but that's not what is usually thought of as a soul.

The one thing I can fathom is that our thoughts and consciousness are manifestations of energy, and I can't think of anything in the world of physics that would suggest that energy would dissipate or die away without being absorbed into something else. Whether that something else has a semblance of awareness is questionable.
I have to believe there is a soul. Just as people that grab a hold of a religion for safety and a sense of peace, I grab the only thing between where I am right now and being an atheist.
 

Kbrown

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The argument against God from human suffering has always come off as particularly hollow for me, especially in light of a God who offered His son as a reminder of both what it is to be human and that we are destined to overcome it.

We foster and tolerate violence and hate and neglect, then blame God for the consequences. Bunk beds were a terrible idea! Why'd you let us do that?
 

Kbrown

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So if this Phil guy was a Muslim, and espoused that verse 4:34 of the Quran said that you should be able to beat your wife if she's being disobedient, I wonder if anyone on the God and Guns side of the aisle would want anything but his immediate release. After all it's an outdated and aggressively hateful belief that has no place in modern society, and freedom of religion doesn't mean the crap you believe isn't offensive.
Except he didn't advocate violence against anyone. Otherwise what a spot-on comparison.
 

townsend

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I didn't comment much on the Duck stuff in this thread to start with. For an even better comparison he never really needs to quote the Quran to find a scripture like that. He can find one in the old testament. In which case I would have said he's a dumb ass for doing either.
That wasn't a dig at you. You're a lot more thoughtful than the average Phil Robertson supporter (or detractor). This was more of an argument against the idea that a person isn't responsible for the offensive things he says, if it happens to fall in line with his religion. I used Islam as an example because portions of the religion that are still stuck in a previous century are more prevalent. Also, I ignorantly assume most Duck Dynasty fans have a poor opinion of Muslims in general.
 
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