Cowboys at Bears | Week 14 Gameday Chatter Thread | 12/8/13

mschmidt64 said:

Campo was a much worse coach than Garrett.

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I'm beginning to wonder about that. I'd like to think Garrett is better than Campo. Would be hard not to be. But MUCH worse? Look at the difference in the talent each had to work with. Campo got 5 wins a year, Garrett 8. And if you can't see Garrett has WAY better personnel than Campo did, you're lying to yourself.

I'm not basing it just on this game. Even the beginning of the year he was not as good as he has been. Just not a 4-3 end. He was always his best when he was facing tight ends and backs.

Carp said:

What exactly was your issue with him? He missed Dez into the wind, but outside of that he did his job.

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He got way too jumpy on the last drive of the 2nd quarter. It reminded me of the Washington game last year.

I knew the team was going to pass with nearly two minutes left and timeouts available. They are stupidly predictable. Here Murray is tearing it up all night, so they just stop using him, burn 0 clock, and hand the ball back to the Bears.

Game was lost right there. Probably would have been lost anyway, but that was throwing gasoline on the fire.

mschmidt64 said:

I think it's pretty clear that Jerry told Garrett to fire Ryan and himself as playcaller. I'm not saying Ryan was a great hire either (and I think Ryan was more of a Garrett pick, or at least Garrett-approved pick), but Kiffin was a Jerry special obviously.

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Obviously a Jerry special? I don't think so. They intentionally brought in a coach that was no threat to Garrett and wouldn't cause a coaching controversy.

I think you are overselling how vital it is that a position coach like the defensive line coach be versed in a 3-4 or 4-3. He's not teaching scheme as much as he is technique and fundamentals at that level.

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If it was the defensive line coach I would agree, but when it's the DB coach and you're trying to implement a completely new way to think about coverage it helps to have a coach that understands how that works. We were going from a man heavy scheme to one that completely sells out for the zone and I said at the time we needed a Tampa-2 expert as a DB coach to make that culture change in the backfield. We didn't get one. We stuck with Henderson and you can see the results for yourself.

You're right that Garrett can't fix the defense and needs someone to come in and do that for him. That's where a lot of experience and a rolodex full of people you've worked with would be pretty useful. Since he got to skip the part of being a coach where you learn to do the job and build a resume, he really doesn't have a lot of connections to build a staff from. That's part of the reason it's hard to tell which hires are Jerry hires and which ones are Jason hires. We can't really draw lines from Jason to anyone else. Kiffin's tiny connection to Jason's cup of coffee in Tampa was as close as you were going to get to a "Jason Guy".

We need someone who, for once, can clean house here and bring in all of his own guys on both sides of the ball. A guy like David Shaw or Greg Roman maybe who could draw from Stanford and whoever isn't under contract in San Fran, with the added bonus that they come from a coaching tree that values the hell out of the OL.

NoDak said:

I'm beginning to wonder about that.

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I'm not. Campo was Rich Kotite bad.

There is no comparison.

The guy was a laughingstock. Garrett is not, as will be demonstrated with his continued employment once he is fired from here.

mschmidt64 said:

I'm not. Campo was Rich Kotite bad.

There is no comparison.

The guy is a laughingstock. Garrett is not, as will be demonstrated with his continued employment once he is fired from here.

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Garrett is better than Campo. Garrett is an 8-8 coach, Campo was a 5-11 coach. You are what your record says you are.

E_D_Guapo said:

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Sad, but friggin' true.

Campo was 'continually employed' too after being fired.

That means nothing

Bob Roberts said:

Campo was 'continually employed' too after being fired.

That means nothing

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So was Wade.

Hell, for that matter, so was Gailey.

Bob Roberts said:

Campo was 'continually employed' too after being fired.

That means nothing

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When they brought him back as the DB coach it was one of the saddest days of my Cowboy fandom to that date.

Clay_Allison said:

Obviously a Jerry special? I don't think so. They intentionally brought in a coach that was no threat to Garrett and wouldn't cause a coaching controversy.

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Yes, you said that already. Where was that reported?

No doubt that they brought in someone with ties to Garrett, but if you think that Garrett was orchestrating a move to bring in someone who was less threatening than Ryan, you are delusional. He was not behind the Ryan firing and I doubt he was the main person clamoring for Kiffin. That was Lacewell and thus, Jerry.

The end result was that someone non-threatening was brought in, but I don't think that was Garrett's design.

If it was the defensive line coach I would agree, but when it's the DB coach and you're trying to implement a completely new way to think about coverage it helps to have a coach that understands how that works. We were going from a man heavy scheme to one that completely sells out for the zone and I said at the time we needed a Tampa-2 expert as a DB coach to make that culture change in the backfield. We didn't get one. We stuck with Henderson and you can see the results for yourself.

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I can see the results for myself but what I don't see so clearly is that it's Henderson's fault. Everyone pointed out how stupid it was to ask Carr, Claiborne and Scandrick to play in a zone scheme. Maybe that's just the limitations of the players. Again, I don't think Henderson is incapable of mastering the CONCEPTS that accompany the techniques needed to play zone. It's just that our guys aren't used to it and aren't good at it.

You're right that Garrett can't fix the defense and needs someone to come in and do that for him. That's where a lot of experience and a rolodex full of people you've worked with would be pretty useful. Since he got to skip the part of being a coach where you learn to do the job and build a resume, he really doesn't have a lot of connections to build a staff from. That's part of the reason it's hard to tell which hires are Jerry hires and which ones are Jason hires. We can't really draw lines from Jason to anyone else. Kiffin's tiny connection to Jason's cup of coffee in Tampa was as close as you were going to get to a "Jason Guy".

We need someone who, for once, can clean house here and bring in all of his own guys on both sides of the ball. A guy like David Shaw or Greg Roman maybe who could draw from Stanford and whoever isn't under contract in San Fran, with the added bonus that they come from a coaching tree that values the hell out of the OL.

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Well I've said many times I'd support an elite franchise level head coach here.

Bob Roberts said:

Campo was 'continually employed' too after being fired.

That means nothing

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Yeah.... by us. Another joke.

Clay_Allison said:

Garrett is better than Campo. Garrett is an 8-8 coach, Campo was a 5-11 coach. You are what your record says you are.

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I think Campo was actually worse than 5-11. He got good defensive performances out of Zimmer to get us that far.

That "you are what your record says you are" thing is your favorite line but it's only true so far.

Yeah, if you are 8-8, you aren't getting the job done. No excuses.

But if you are taking that to mean every coach who goes 8-8 is of equal ability, and you are making hires based off that assumption, you are gonna make a lot of really fucking bad decisions, because it's not the case that they are all equal.

mschmidt64 said:

Yeah.... by us. Another joke.

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Not quite. He was the DC for the Browns for 2 yrs and the Assist HC/DBs for the Jags before he came back.

So, now, not only are we the worst defense in the league this year, we are one of the worst defenses of all time.

Hooray, Jerry.

superpunk said:

I feel like there's no way we beat Josh McCown tonight and that sucks.

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:((((((((((((((((

It's really silly to make this a coaching thing. We are unleashing people wide open in the secondary and we have been for years, no matter who shows up. We'll jimmy rig something for a few years, and then start falling apart at a record setting pace. We just don't have the horses. Not even close.

mschmidt64 said:

I'm not. Campo was Rich Kotite bad.

There is no comparison.

The guy was a laughingstock. Garrett is not, as will be demonstrated with his continued employment once he is fired from here.

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Nobody expected you to. But to say there is no comparison is laughable.

Answer me this. How many games do you think Garrett would be winning with guys like Quincy Carter, Ryan Leaf, Darrin Chiaverini, Joey Galloway, Wayne McGarity, Kenyon Rambo, Randal Williams, Troy Hambrick, Jackie Harris, Mick Lucky, etc... You think they could have made his offense go?

Do you think Campo might have had a better chance with guys like Tony Romo, Dez Bryant, Miles Austin, Terrell Owens, Laurent Robinson, Demarco Murray, Felix Jones, Marion Barber, Jason Witten, etc..?

No, I'll bet you don't.

superpunk said:

It's really silly to make this a coaching thing. We are unleashing people wide open in the secondary and we have been for years, no matter who shows up. We'll jimmy rig something for a few years, and then start falling apart at a record setting pace. We just don't have the horses. Not even close.

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You are correct. If you want to direct your ire at someone that is truly at fault in the overall scheme of things it's Jerry.