A week of LGBTQ acceptance education in a middle school. Really?

skidadl

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It's not petty its the truth.

And after everything you have called me and accused me of now you have the gall to play the victim card. .

I get no satisfaction but just like you certain things that I feel strongly about and like you do with me constantly, I respond.
This is getting weird really fast. I'm sorry that you've been hurt over the years. I didn't realize you were carrying so much emotional baggage.

Let me be clear about something here. I am never ever a victim when it comes to how I conduct myself. That is 100% on me 100% of the time. Always.
 
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skidadl

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Fuck you dude.

I have never talked about anybodies family on this board as long as I have been here.

You get way more personal than I do so save that "you know me" bullshit.

There is nothing in my posting history to make you or anyone think I would say something untoward about your daughter.
You're obviously on emotional melt down mode right at this point.

Haha I've been there.
 

townsend

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Jiggy, you are welcome to go there if you like. It is extremely petty and inflammatory though. Really, why would you unless it gives you some sort of weird satisfaction to pounce when I make a mistake. Why do you care about that? Don't be childish, man. Please use this one time to have a good response to other human beings.

It is called being human. It happens, you know.
But things never go that way. This is about more issues than just a few trans people. I've tried my best to bring up real consequences and those get glossed over. That pretty much proves that this discussion isn't solution based but it is agenda based.
Honestly, I haven't seen an evidence based argument of what the consequences of inclusion of trans. (Not to be confused with full gender integrated restrooms) is.

It's mostly "boys can't shower with girls" and "perverts who we were comfortable having around are boys can now exploit a loophole to get to our girls".

Now if you oppose gender integration, I'm on your side. Not for a morality purpose, just because it's not pragmatic. I don't think boys can shower with girls now that we've made a thing out of it.

But if the concern is perverts, that's just not reasonable. I've made this point before but it's been a non issue in most places.

http://mediamatters.org/research/2014/03/20/15-experts-debunk-right-wing-transgender-bathro/198533

Let me be clear I don't believe in outlawing scholastic sports, church youth groups, and homeschooling, but if I wanted to show you "real life consequences" that have occurred thanks to it, I could write a statistic filled essay there'd be very few places that could say "no incidents" about that, and that is why this is hysteria. Because there are plenty of dangerous things we're comfortable with, we throw up our hands and say "nothing can be done". Except when it's a small group of people that we don't care about who has to pay the price. Then no risk is too small.
 

Cotton

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This doesn't have shit to do with the media. Guys going into girls restrooms is extremely uncomfortable for young girls. The fear of having your privacy invaded is a real thing. I don't understand why you are trying to figure out who caused this. We live in a society where young and old girls can be comfortable. Do you not understand that almost all girls are uncomfortable with this? So why should everyone have to change for a few? It is stupid.
You can't tell him what makes a young girl uncomfortable. He already knows and stuff.
 

Cotton

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You are an idiot. I'm obviously voicing frustration about real issues. Do you get that it has already effected my daughters? Please don't reproduce, I'm begging you. You are incapable of standing up for your potential little girls. We don't need more passive dads in this world.
Fact!
 

Cotton

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Obviously I'm for bathroom privacy. But there's a difference between a guy being in a women's restroom and a trans woman being in there. There's a damn big difference between, two people using the same restroom at the same time, and one invading the other's privacy.

Men and boys use the same restroom. That's a thing that society says is okay. But if the narrative arose that men were going to attack/spy on/expose themselves to boys in the they'd be scared too. We've blown up this ridiculous predatory caricature of men that are terrifying predators, even though society trusts our boys in the restroom with them, without issue.

Then packed on a second assumption that Trans women are men, which is as reductive and ignorant as saying that gay men are just confused or mentally ill. Those two massive leaps in logic lead "hey trans people should be able to use the bathroom without being harassed" to sound like "let's let monsters into children's bathrooms". That's what has been telegraphed, that's what the activists aren't responsible for.
You're wrong. The danger isn't made up. You can keep spouting stupid shit until your fingers bleed, but it will never get you closer to being right. It's that simple.
 

townsend

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Btw. Skid I genuinely feel for you, if I had a kid, especially a daughter, I'd probably spend every waking minute and most of my my dreams worrying about them. This is a genuinely scary planet we live on.
 

skidadl

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Honestly, I haven't seen an evidence based argument of what the consequences of inclusion of trans. (Not to be confused with full gender integrated restrooms) is.

It's mostly "boys can't shower with girls" and "perverts who we were comfortable having around are boys can now exploit a loophole to get to our girls".

Now if you oppose gender integration, I'm on your side. Not for a morality purpose, just because it's not pragmatic. I don't think boys can shower with girls now that we've made a thing out of it.

But if the concern is perverts, that's just not reasonable. I've made this point before but it's been a non issue in most places.

http://mediamatters.org/research/2014/03/20/15-experts-debunk-right-wing-transgender-bathro/198533

Let me be clear I don't believe in outlawing scholastic sports, church youth groups, and homeschooling, but if I wanted to show you "real life consequences" that have occurred thanks to it, I could write a statistic filled essay there'd be very few places that could say "no incidents" about that, and that is why this is hysteria. Because there are plenty of dangerous things we're comfortable with, we throw up our hands and say "nothing can be done". Except when it's a small group of people that we don't care about who has to pay the price. Then no risk is too small.
You don't have to be a pervert to get a woody showering with the opposite sex. You don't have to be a fear mongerer to be uncomfortable with the idea of girls showering with boys.


As far as statistics are concerned I believe that both sides are completely missing the boat. On one hand you use a statistic to prove that trans gender people rarely rape anyone. Ok, fair enough. This is supposed to be about including everyone and not making a few people uncomfortable. So we use statistics to say that rape rarely happens but don't use statistics to for everything. We don't need statistics to know how uncomfortable this is going to make millions of other people. So since it rarely makes trans people uncomfortable why can't we justify keeping it the way it is? It sounds hypocritical to me.
 

Cotton

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Actually it has everything to do with being a dad. If it didn't I may not care as much. Since I am loving it in real time I have some idea of the potential of the enormity of it. So yeah, it is pretty personal with me. The agenda itself gets the dad in me in fight mode. It makes me question the fiber of our society and what manhood is. I question what the role of masculinity plays in this world when it comes to the instinct to protect. Am I fantasizing that this used to be valued and now it is deminishing?
Unfortunately, you're right. The pussification of our society is very much real, and this conversation is the perfect example of it.
 

E_D_Guapo

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Let's go ahead and out one issue to rest here - masculinity is certainly becoming more and more revalued. No question about it.
Hasn't that always been the case? Masculinity is really nothing more than a concept and it is constantly evolving. You don't have to go back very far at all (or at all in some cases and in many other parts of the world) to where a lot of people's ideas of a masculine man was someone who was most likely held very mysoginistic and homophobic views/behavior. A few generations ago even in this country guys like most of us here who treat our wives as equal partners/with love and respect, spend lots of quality time with our children, and tolerate the lifestyle choices of the gay community would practically be considered women.
 
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Cotton

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Btw. Skid I genuinely feel for you, if I had a kid, especially a daughter, I'd probably spend every waking minute and most of my my dreams worrying about them. This is a genuinely scary planet we live on.
Finally, you see the point.
 

skidadl

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Hasn't that always been the case? Masculinity is really nothing more than a concept and it is constantly evolving. You don't have to go back very far at all (or at all in some cases and in many other parts of the world) to where a lot of people's ideas of a masculine man was someone who was most likely held very mysoginistic and homophobic views/behavior.

I thought about that as I was posting. You are correct.
 

Cotton

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Hasn't that always been the case? Masculinity is really nothing more than a concept and it is constantly evolving. You don't have to go back very far at all (or at all in some cases and in many other parts of the world) to where a lot of people's ideas of a masculine man was someone who was most likely held very mysoginistic and homophobic views/behavior. A few generations ago even in this country guys like most of us here who treat our wives with love and respect, spend lots of quality time with our children, and tolerate the lifestyle choices of the gay community would practically be considered women.
Sure, through the centuries, what we view as masculine has changed. Hell, our forefathers wore big ass wigs and makeup. Today that would be considered the ghey. Or trans as it relates to this thread. But, the lines between men and women are becoming more and more blurry, and IMO, that's not the way it should be. We are distinct creatures.
 

townsend

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You don't have to be a pervert to get a woody showering with the opposite sex. You don't have to be a fear mongerer to be uncomfortable with the idea of girls showering with boys.


As far as statistics are concerned I believe that both sides are completely missing the boat. On one hand you use a statistic to prove that trans gender people rarely rape anyone. Ok, fair enough. This is supposed to be about including everyone and not making a few people uncomfortable. So we use statistics to say that rape rarely happens but don't use statistics to for everything. We don't need statistics to know how uncomfortable this is going to make millions of other people. So since it rarely makes trans people uncomfortable why can't we justify keeping it the way it is? It sounds hypocritical to me.
It isn't comfort vs. comfort. It's legitimate fear of being harassed or assaulted, versus comfort, and frankly if you count the number of people who are comfortable with trans people in the bathroom, I don't think the uncomfortable people constitute a majority. The most recent number I've heard is 6 out of 10 were uncomfortable with anti-trans laws. http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/09/politics/poll-transgender-bathroom-law-north-carolina/index.html

So I'd say the narrative of sacrificing the minority for the sake of the majority is misleading.

Again, I don't necessarily think national laws that dictate this kind of widespread inclusion are necessarily a good idea. It seems to be most successful on the municipal level, where the local majority is the one making the final decision. On the other hand, businesses and such shouldn't be outlawed from making their own decisions on the issue.
 

skidadl

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Right but we had a national decree by our president to one the bathrooms, showers and locker rooms to whoever or lose funding. I think that rhetoric of the left is pretty much an indication of where they want it to go. Outrage is not unfounded.
 

NoDak

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Interestingly elaborate rape fantasy. Shows your heart's in the right place. I'm sure that's in the New Testament "bless those who curse you, and rape those who disagree with you."
:lol

Good stuff.
 

Cotton

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Right but we had a national decree by our president to one the bathrooms, showers and locker rooms to whoever or lose funding. I think that rhetoric of the left is pretty much an indication of where they want it to go. Outrage is not unfounded.
Texas isn't having any of it.

_________________________________

Official: Texas will forego federal funds over LGBT policy
BY ASSOCIATED PRESS FRIDAY, MAY 13TH 2016

DALLAS (AP) — Texas says it can do without the billions of dollars it receives in federal school funding.

The state's lieutenant governor says Texas isn't going to go along with a directive from the Obama administration, telling states that their schools have to let transgender students use bathrooms and locker rooms that are consistent with their chosen gender identity. Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick says state lawmakers will find a way to come up with some of the money.

He says Texas "will not yield to blackmail" and urged superintendents to defy the new federal guidance.

One school superintendent in southeastern Texas tells a TV station (KFDM) that when he receives the directive from Washington, he'll "throw it away."

Patrick says Texas receives roughly $10 billion in federal education dollars.
 

Cotton

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So, an entire state is standing against this. The biggest state in the nation, to be exact, yet the outrage against this is made up. Yeah, okay.
 

skidadl

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[MENTION=63]Jiggyfly[/MENTION] [MENTION=88]townsend[/MENTION]

I like to debate and discuss issues that are important. But I refuse to let anger and pride get the best of me so I apologize for personally offending both of you. I was wrong.

I feel that I can have a really heated discussion with someone like iamtdg because we are friends and have a lot of mutual respect for each other. We can cuss each other out and not really think much about it later but this is different, so I do admit I am wrong for making it personal. My emotions got the best of me.
 
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