2016 POTUS Election Thread

townsend · Aug 3, 2016

L.T. Fan said:
I am not alone in my preference for this race.

a lot of Trump supporters have been saying that.

Cowboysrock55 · Aug 3, 2016

townsend said:
Hillary's statement was more centrist than even her constituency preferred, so your entire basis for comparison is faulty.

So advocating for a woman's right to have an abortion even on her due date isn't fringe? That's more fringe, in my opinion at least, then to suggest keeping a database of a certain religion. One is tracking, the other is literally killing babies capable of being born.

townsend · Aug 3, 2016

Cowboysrock55 said:
So advocating for a woman's right to have an abortion even on her due date isn't fringe? That's more fringe, in my opinion at least, then to suggest keeping a database of a certain religion. One is tracking, the other is literally killing babies capable of being born.

Since Clinton's statement was specifically speaking to late term abortions as a defense for the life of the mother, it absolutely isn't fringe, it's common sense.

Do you believe that a mother should be obligated by law to sacrifice her life for an unborn baby's? There are also instances where a baby's health is so bad that it would suffer and die shortly after birth, and a late term abortion would save the mother and the child from having to go through that, would you prefer the mother be legally obligated to take it to term? No that's not a fringe concept. That's treating a mother like a human being, that's libertarianism.

Paul Ryan and Kasich both blatantly compared a muslin database to something that might happen in Nazi Germany. So if it seems like an extremist right wing fringe thing to the political right, it's probably pandering to a fringe.

2233boys · Aug 3, 2016

Cowboysrock55 said:
So advocating for a woman's right to have an abortion even on her due date isn't fringe? That's more fringe, in my opinion at least, then to suggest keeping a database of a certain religion. One is tracking, the other is literally killing babies capable of being born.

Not a fan of Clinton's but she has said she would work with GOP to limit late term abortions if provisions for the Mother's health were included.

This election cycle. Shocked the hell out of me too.

Clinton Sucks.

Trump is an unqualified moron that is literally embarrassing our country every minute he is in the race.

Cowboysrock55 · Aug 3, 2016

townsend said:
Paul Ryan and Kasich both blatantly compared a muslin database to something that might happen in Nazi Germany. So if it seems like an extremist right wing fringe thing to the political right, it's probably pandering to a fringe.

It's like you think I'm somehow defending Trump for pandering. I've already said he does. You're making this a Trump vs. Clinton thing because you know you absolutely can't defend crooked Hilary Clinton so you try to deflect by bringing up Trump. It's not my fault that Hilary literally said that a baby has no constitutional rights hours before they are born. Including the constitutional right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. It's pretty clear what that means.

I don't think Hilary actually believes that by the way. It's just her typical pandering to the fringe that hears pro abortion and waves their towel. Which isn't all that surprising for a Presidential candidate that has in the past shared many of the same views that Donald Trump now argues for. Of course Hilary has flopped on all of those issues because she is pandering for votes. It's what she does. And frankly it's what Trump does too. One of them being evil doesn't make the other better.

Cowboysrock55 · Aug 3, 2016

townsend said:
Do you believe that a mother should be obligated by law to sacrifice her life for an unborn baby's? There are also instances where a baby's health is so bad that it would suffer and die shortly after birth, and a late term abortion would save the mother and the child from having to go through that, would you prefer the mother be legally obligated to take it to term?

Do I think we should kill a baby an hour before it is born because we think it may die naturally? I hope that's not really your suggestion?

townsend · Aug 3, 2016

Cowboysrock55 said:
It's like you think I'm somehow defending Trump for pandering. I've already said he does. You're making this a Trump vs. Clinton thing because you know you absolutely can't defend crooked Hilary Clinton so you try to deflect by bringing up Trump. It's not my fault that Hilary literally said that a baby has no constitutional rights hours before they are born. Including the constitutional right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. It's pretty clear what that means.

I don't think Hilary actually believes that by the way. It's just her typical pandering to the fringe that hears pro abortion and waves their towel. Which isn't all that surprising for a Presidential candidate that has in the past shared many of the same views that Donald Trump now argues for. Of course Hilary has flopped on all of those issues because she is pandering for votes. It's what she does. And frankly it's what Trump does too. One of them being evil doesn't make the other better.

You brought up Clinton.

I posted the thing about the Muslim registry, you posted other thing about Muslim registry, I said the issue wasn't so much what he said but how he wasn't able to just say "no, I don't want a Muslim registry", you said he's just blowing hot air like a politician, I said "why is it the only time he's willing to take a cautious stance on anything when he's pandering to David Duke's fan base?" ,then YOU brought up Hillary, comparing her innocuous and fairly centrist view on abortion to Trump pandering to white supremacists.

Don't accuse me of bringing up Trump, this started about Trump, until you injected unrelated nonsense.

Cowboysrock55 · Aug 3, 2016

townsend said:
Don't accuse me of bringing up Trump, this started about Trump, until you injected unrelated nonsense.

Yeah, and we moved off Trump because I said he was pandering, which we both agree on.

townsend · Aug 3, 2016

Cowboysrock55 said:
Do I think we should kill a baby an hour before it is born because we think it may die naturally? I hope that's not really your suggestion?

Do you think a mother should be treated like an object rather than a person, and be forced to give birth to a child and then be forced to watch it suffer and die instead of being spared from that fate humanely?

I'm asking if you're actually a Libertarian, or if you think a mother and a physician don't have a better understanding of the best, safest, and most moral decision than boiler plate legislation.

townsend · Aug 3, 2016

Cowboysrock55 said:
Yeah, and we moved off Trump because I said he was pandering, which we both agree on.

We do agree on that. My concern wasn't that he was pandering. All politicians, including Hillary pander, my concern was who he was pandering to.

You had your own ideas of how Hillary might be more pro abortion than her centrist stance, and for all I know that could be true.

But Trump has enough of a record of saying shitty racist things to construct a much more provable hypothesis that he's a massive fucking white supremacist. Your theory on Hillary is based on what she hasn't said, mine is on what Trump has.

Genghis Khan · Aug 3, 2016

2233boys said:
I agree, but that isn't me. I am not voting for Hillary. I am writing in Bernie, because we can in PA.

I am writing in myself. And if I win, I weep for this country. :unsure

Cowboysrock55 · Aug 3, 2016

townsend said:
Do you think a mother should be treated like an object rather than a person, and be forced to give birth to a child and then be forced to watch it suffer and die instead of being spared from that fate humanely?

I'm asking if you're actually a Libertarian, or if you think a mother and a physician don't have a better understanding of the best, safest, and most moral decision than boiler plate legislation.

I'm a Libertarian. And as a Libertarian I believe in a persons right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. And yes I believe a baby just hours before being born is still a human being. Meaning mom has no right to inflict harm on the baby, thus infringing on that childs "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness."

If you think there is any difference between the baby an hour before it is born and an hour after it is born, I'd call you a crazy psychopath.

Cowboysrock55 · Aug 3, 2016

townsend said:
You had your own ideas of how Hillary might be more pro abortion than her centrist stance, and for all I know that could be true.

Let me make it clear then because that's not the case. I don't think Hillary is in agreement with the fringe fanatical pro abortion people. I think she says statements in an attempt to appease them so they will vote for her.

townsend · Aug 3, 2016

Cowboysrock55 said:
Let me make it clear then because that's not the case. I don't think Hillary is in agreement with the fringe fanatical pro abortion people. I think she says statements in an attempt to appease them so they will vote for her.

Oh, sorry, I misunderstood what you said.

townsend · Aug 3, 2016

Cowboysrock55 said:
I'm a Libertarian. And as a Libertarian I believe in a persons right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. And yes I believe a baby just hours before being born is still a human being. Meaning mom has no right to inflict harm on the baby, thus infringing on that childs "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness."

If you think there is any difference between the baby an hour before it is born and an hour after it is born, I'd call you a crazy psychopath.

Honestly I don't know how close a baby can be to birth and still can be aborted to save the mother. But that's my cut off. A child has a right to live, but I wouldn't expect an adult to be forced by law to have a vital organ removed to save a child either.

As far as late terms abortions to prevent newborn suffering and dying once born, from my understanding those are typically discovered well before "just hours before" but yeah, I do think there should be humanitarian allowances to prevent undue suffering from a parent and child. Because that's a lot of physical and emotional pain to expect a mother to go through for the sake of an arbitrary moral high ground.

Cowboysrock55 · Aug 3, 2016

townsend said:
Honestly I don't know how close a baby can be to birth and still can be aborted to save the mother. But that's my cut off. A child has a right to live, but I wouldn't expect an adult to be forced by law to have a vital organ removed to save a child either.

I see no scenario where hours before birth a child would need to be killed in order to save mothers life. At that point the child's life is just as viable as the mothers in my opinion.

If you want to talk about a period of time where the child wouldn't be viable outside of the womb that is a reasonable discussion. But to me if that child is viable and able to live outside of the female, you have no right to kill the baby.

2233boys · Aug 3, 2016

Genghis Khan said:
I am writing in myself. And if I win, I weep for this country.

Sorry Bernie still has my vote, no matter how great a Genghis Khan presidency may sound to me. :unsure

L.T. Fan · Aug 3, 2016

townsend said:
We do agree on that. My concern wasn't that he was pandering. All politicians, including Hillary pander, my concern was who he was pandering to.

You had your own ideas of how Hillary might be more pro abortion than her centrist stance, and for all I know that could be true.

But Trump has enough of a record of saying shitty racist things to construct a much more provable hypothesis that he's a massive fucking white supremacist. Your theory on Hillary is based on what she hasn't said, mine is on what Trump has.

Whatever happened to individuals having freedom of thought and expression. Your own words show you would take that away from anyone and deprive them of individual thoughts simply because they differed with yours. Your own admissions are that anyone who doesn't see things your way are stupid and lack the intelligence to have their own opinions. Does that sound like some kind of supremacist to you?

townsend · Aug 3, 2016

Cowboysrock55 said:
I see no scenario where hours before birth a child would need to be killed in order to save mothers life. At that point the child's life is just as viable as the mothers in my opinion.

If you want to talk about a period of time where the child wouldn't be viable outside of the womb that is a reasonable discussion. But to me if that child is viable and able to live outside of the female, you have no right to kill the baby.

Honestly this gos far outside my level of knowledge, there are a lot of variables that would take a person with a medical degree to understand. Which is kind of the point. I have more faith in doctors than legislators. Likely they'd be more likely to make a correct decison than the politicians.

I have more faith in would be mothers to make the correct decision for their child. An unborn child doesn't have constitutional rights because it can't make a decision. The only people who can make intelligent determinations should be empowered to do so, and restrictions written by people that aren't informed of the specifics (or ther generalities for that matter) of each pregnancy should butt out, and trust the people who are most heavily invested in the outcome.

townsend · Aug 3, 2016

L.T. Fan said:
Whatever happened to individuals having freedom of thought and expression. Your own words show you would take that away from anyone and deprive them of individual thoughts simply because they differed with yours. Your own admissions are that anyone who doesn't see things your way are stupid and lack the intelligence to have their own opinions. Does that sound like some kind of supremacist to you?

Freedoms of thought and expression are from legal retribution, not criticism.

Nobody's guaranteed freedom from criticism. In fact my freedom to criticize is exactly the same freedom that lets people say stupid things worthy of criticism. I'm glad Donald Trump is allowed to say stupid things all the time, it allows us to make informed decisions of how terrible a person he is.

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