This Little Pipeline Protest

dallen · Dec 16, 2016

fortsbest said:
I have traveled by train many years ago in Europe, but don't really remember the experience. If I had a vacation where I had time, I would love to go somewhere by train.

I traveled through Germany by train and it was pretty great

Jiggyfly · Dec 16, 2016

fortsbest said:
Yes, I'm glad you are agreeing with me.

What?

No I agree with Iamtdg who said that you were wrong.

Ability to afford vehicles had nothing to do with the rise of mass transit.

Jiggyfly · Dec 16, 2016

fortsbest said:
It was a rightful response to your comment. Envro anti energy radicals are always on the left side of politics and the democrats cater to them unwaveringly. anti government, and even radical white supremacist groups nearly always are lumped in with the right for some reason. Difference is conservatives and that vast majority of Republicans don't cater to them and will condemn them and their actions.

You still don't get it.

So I guess it's ok for me to call the right racist and bigots since most of stormfront is aligned with them.

Cowboysrock55 · Dec 16, 2016

fortsbest said:
I have traveled by train many years ago in Europe, but don't really remember the experience. If I had a vacation where I had time, I would love to go somewhere by train.

Yeah that's my feelings as well. I think public transit like that is wonderful when you're not in a hurry. Which is really the biggest problem with public transit in general. People don't want to spend the time and effort to use it.

Kbrown · Dec 16, 2016

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/cpt/

Cotton · Dec 16, 2016

Kbrown said:
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/cpt/

Yeah, he is an advocate. My colleagues and I were pretty stoked about him appointing Elaine Chao to the Secretary of Transportation position. We may actually finally get some substantial shit done.

L.T. Fan · Dec 16, 2016

Iamtdg said:
Yeah, he is an advocate. My colleagues and I were pretty stoked about him appointing Elaine Chao to the Secretary of Transportation position. We may actually finally get some substantial shit done.

I think Trump willl advocate mass transit but I think Congress will curtail most proposals because their constituents are in areas that do not think it is either feasable cost wise and secondly would prefer expenditures go for petroleum free vechicle s and utilities. Area wise the majority of Americans live in open space notwithstanding the densely populated exception areas.

Cotton · Dec 16, 2016

L.T. Fan said:
I think Trump willl advocate mass transit but I think Congress will curtail most proposals because their constituents are in areas that do not think it is either feasable cost wise and secondly would prefer expenditures go for petroleum free vechicle s and utilities. Area wise the majority of Americans live in open space notwithstanding the densely populated exception areas.

I think you are way underselling how people feel about mass transit in bigger cities. It is wanted and needed. And, this cost prohibitive thing you keep bringing up simply isn't true.

L.T. Fan · Dec 16, 2016

Iamtdg said:
I think you are way underselling how people feel about mass transit in bigger cities. It is wanted and needed. And, this cost prohibitive thing you keep bringing up simply isn't true.

Can you identify any systems that have been created in the last 25 years that operates at a profit and turns money to the cities coffers? Secondly, many people who live in areas where some form of mass transit exists actually prefer driving their vehicles. I will give Dallas as an example. After the worker commute is over the trains run mostly empty. This is pretty much the same for most areas with the exception of a few cities.

Cotton · Dec 16, 2016

L.T. Fan said:
Can you identify any systems that have been created in the last 25 years that operates at a profit and turns money to the cities coffers? Secondly, many people who live in areas where some form of mass transit exists actually prefer driving their vehicles. I will give Dallas as an example. After the worker commute is over the trains run mostly empty. This is pretty much the same for most areas with the exception of a few cities.

See, this is how you're looking at it wrong. The profit from mass transit and other TDM measures are in cost savings from having to build more infrastructure. The alternate to TDM is parking, and building parking is very expensive. To give you an example, my efforts at TTU over the last 7 years have allowed for in the neighborhood of 2,700 parking spaces to not be constructed. If they built that out in surface parking the cost savings of initial construction and maintenance is about $22 million. If the parking had to be a structure the costs savings would be around $68 million. So, a good transit system can be very fruitful when looking at the bigger picture. People just generally never see the bigger picture.

L.T. Fan · Dec 16, 2016

Iamtdg said:
See, this is how you're looking at it wrong. The profit from mass transit and other TDM measures are in cost savings from having to build more infrastructure. The alternate to TDM is parking, and building parking is very expensive. To give you an example, my efforts at TTU over the last 7 years have allowed for in the neighborhood of 2,700 parking spaces to not be constructed. If they built that out in surface parking the cost savings of initial construction and maintenance is about $22 million. If the parking had to be a structure the costs savings would be around $68 million. So, a good transit system can be very fruitful when looking at the bigger picture. People just generally never see the bigger picture.

Fuzzy math. I don't see anything going to payoff the debt from the borrowings to build the system.

Cotton · Dec 16, 2016

L.T. Fan said:
Fuzzy math. I don't see anything going to payoff the debt from the borrowings to build the system.

Federal grants aren't borrows. They are matched grants. And, if you can't see the savings as a payoff, I'm not sure what further I can tell you.

L.T. Fan · Dec 16, 2016

Iamtdg said:
Federal grants aren't borrows. They are matched grants. And, if you can't see the savings as a payoff, I'm not sure what further I can tell you.

The grants are from appropriated funds in the budget. When Congress passes the budget only a small portion goes into grants for this purpose. Only a small portion of the country will actually be able to utilize these funds each year. It will not meet the demands for a massive undertaking for all the nation.

My point is that Congress likely will not appropriate huge sums in the budget at the expense of other categories needed in the budget. I am not anti mass transit. I am as much for it as anyone but the mindset in Congress is that the approach currently is to utilize petroleum as the primary energy source and work toward independence via different types of automobiles and petroleum dependent systems.

Mass transit is a portion of the process but not the primary solution. It will be a slow conversion because the primary funds for development comes through the Congressional budget.

Cotton · Dec 16, 2016

L.T. Fan said:
The grants are from appropriated funds in the budget. When Congress passes the budget only a small portion goes into grants for this purpose. Only a small portion of the country will actually be able to utilize these funds each year. It will not meet the demands for a massive undertaking for all the nation.

My point is that Congress likely will not appropriate huge sums in the budget at the expense of other categories needed in the budget. I am not anti mass transit. I am as much for it as anyone but the mindset in Congress is that the approach currently is to utilize petroleum as the primary energy source and work toward independence via different types of automobiles and petroleum dependent systems.

Mass transit is a portion of the process but not the primary solution. It will be a slow conversion because the primary funds for development comes through the Congressional budget.

And, I'm telling you (and have for like 3 pages now) that they are looking at is backasswards, and should change their line of thinking. And, don't begin to act like you know the thoughts of congress on this issue better than me. I lobby them in person twice a year, and am very involved in public policy efforts in this arena. I know that there are a big majority of them (even Republicans) that are shifting their thinking in this matter.

L.T. Fan · Dec 16, 2016

Iamtdg said:
And, I'm telling you (and have for like 3 pages now) that they are looking at is backasswards, and should change their line of thinking. And, don't begin to act like you know the thoughts of congress on this issue better than me. I lobby them in person twice a year, and am very involved in public policy efforts in this arena. I know that there are a big majority of them (even Republicans) that are shifting their thinking in this matter.

I'm not saying you are wrong I am explaining the current mind set toward energy solutions.

L.T. Fan · Dec 16, 2016

Iamtdg said:
And, I'm telling you (and have for like 3 pages now) that they are looking at is backasswards, and should change their line of thinking. And, don't begin to act like you know the thoughts of congress on this issue better than me. I lobby them in person twice a year, and am very involved in public policy efforts in this arena. I know that there are a big majority of them (even Republicans) that are shifting their thinking in this matter.

Review the budgets yourself and see where the research and development is being done. Detroit is doing all their efforts on energy effecient vechicle and they also get huge grants to do this. Solar is getting their fair share of grant money as well as wind power. It is all going at the same pace for their piece of the grant money pie.

Cotton · Dec 16, 2016

L.T. Fan said:
I'm not saying you are wrong I am explaining the current mind set toward energy solutions.

And, mass transit/TDM is becoming more and more widely viewed as part of that situation. I think this may be what you're missing in what I'm saying. Historically, is hasn't been, but that is slowly changing.

Cotton · Dec 16, 2016

L.T. Fan said:
Review the budgets yourself and see where the research and development is being done. Detroit is doing all their efforts on energy effecient vechicle and they also get huge grants to do this. Solar is getting their fair share of grant money as well as wind power. It is all going at the same pace for their piece of the grant money pie.

It's like you are intentionally trying to tell me things I already know.

L.T. Fan · Dec 16, 2016

Iamtdg said:
It's like you are intentionally trying to tell me things I already know.

Well let your fingers do the walking. This link shows the budget projections for all the transportation grants for the future. What is evident is that the grants are not projected to increase. I am simply saying that mass transit grants will not fund a significant amount of mass transit development and it has a low priority for energy conservation. No need to take this as my assessment as to the value of system.

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42706.pdf

Cotton · Dec 16, 2016

I'm done.

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