A week of LGBTQ acceptance education in a middle school. Really?

Smitty

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So it's all the horrible discrimination that gives trans people all their accompanying mental illnesses?

Give me a break. It's not chicken or egg. Trans people are prone to
mental illness because trans is mental illness.
 

L.T. Fan

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You can't use blacks as an example it's race baiting.

Right L.T. and No Dak?
Townsend has his own style of baiting. He just can't seem to help it and neither I nor So. Dak are not responsible for his dialogue. How's that?
 

townsend

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So it's all the horrible discrimination that gives trans people all their accompanying mental illnesses?

Give me a break. It's not chicken or egg. Trans people are prone to
mental illness because trans is mental illness.
So you've come to a conclusion based on a personal bias based on no usable evidence. I believe that's called an appeal to ignorance or maybe an appeal to incredulity, either way it's a great way show that the moon landing was staged.
 

Smitty

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So you've come to a conclusion based on a personal bias based on no usable evidence.
No, actually, that's what you've done. You pulled a silly assertion out of your ass that trans people must have mental problems because they are persecuted, and you have no evidence for that statement.

The article I posted talks about the mental conditions that accompany 90%+ of trans cases, which does not exist in the rest of the LGB world (another "discriminated against" minority). You are just assuming that it's correlation and not causation due to your own biases.

The staggering number of co-existing disorders in the gender dysphoric population sets the transgender group apart from the lesbian, gay, and bisexual population. The deep psychological and psychiatric depression that results from the self-deception of gender identity and the untreated mental disorders has been the major contributor to transgenders’ position at the top of the most-likely-to commit-suicide list.

And

Fast-forward to July 30, 2004, when a review of 100 medical studies delivered another powerful rebuke of surgical genders. David Batty wrote in The Guardian in the UK:
There is no conclusive evidence that sex change operations improve the lives of transsexuals, with many people remaining severely distressed and even suicidal after the operation, according to a medical review conducted exclusively for Guardian Weekend tomorrow.

The review of more than 100 international medical studies of post-operative transsexuals by the University of Birmingham’s aggressive research intelligence facility (Arif) found no robust scientific evidence that gender reassignment surgery is clinically effective.

Some have argued that transgenderism could be due to genetic factors, in a parallel argument to those suggesting a “gay gene.” So far, research has found no such thing for transsexuals. Studies from 2013 and 2009 showed no alterations in the DNA of the main sex-determining genes in transsexuals, proving born-male transgenders are normal males; not a smidgeon of abnormality in their genetic make-up causes them to be transgender. Gender issues are not inherent to the genetic makeup.




Chicken or the egg. :lol

Who can tell what is the root cause here in people believing that fantasy is reality? It's either people telling them that it's fantasy that is causing them to be depressed, or it's something wrong with their brains that make them believe fantasy is reality, that also causes depression and all these other mental disorders. We can't know which it is! Durrr.
 
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Clay_Allison

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No, actually, that's what you've done. You pulled a silly assertion out of your ass that trans people must have mental problems because they are persecuted, and you have no evidence for that statement.

The article I posted talks about the mental conditions that accompany 90%+ of trans cases, which does not exist in the rest of the LGB world (another "discriminated against" minority). You are just assuming that it's correlation and not causation due to your own biases.

The staggering number of co-existing disorders in the gender dysphoric population sets the transgender group apart from the lesbian, gay, and bisexual population. The deep psychological and psychiatric depression that results from the self-deception of gender identity and the untreated mental disorders has been the major contributor to transgenders’ position at the top of the most-likely-to commit-suicide list.

And

Fast-forward to July 30, 2004, when a review of 100 medical studies delivered another powerful rebuke of surgical genders. David Batty wrote in The Guardian in the UK:

There is no conclusive evidence that sex change operations improve the lives of transsexuals, with many people remaining severely distressed and even suicidal after the operation, according to a medical review conducted exclusively for Guardian Weekend tomorrow.

The review of more than 100 international medical studies of post-operative transsexuals by the University of Birmingham’s aggressive research intelligence facility (Arif) found no robust scientific evidence that gender reassignment surgery is clinically effective.

Some have argued that transgenderism could be due to genetic factors, in a parallel argument to those suggesting a “gay gene.” So far, research has found no such thing for transsexuals. Studies from 2013 and 2009 showed no alterations in the DNA of the main sex-determining genes in transsexuals, proving born-male transgenders are normal males; not a smidgeon of abnormality in their genetic make-up causes them to be transgender. Gender issues are not inherent to the genetic makeup.




Chicken or the egg. :lol

Who can tell what is the root cause here in people believing that fantasy is reality? It's either people telling them that it's fantasy that is causing them to be depressed, or it's something wrong with their brains that make them believe fantasy is reality. We can't know which it is! Durrr.
Usually the burden of proof is on the person claiming causation, not on people to disprove it. If I doubt a causal link between two correlated things or doubt the direction of causation, that's the default scientific position to take until the link is proven to exist.
 

Smitty

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Usually the burden of proof is on the person claiming causation, not on people to disprove it. If I doubt a causal link between two correlated things or doubt the direction of causation, that's the default scientific position to take until the link is proven to exist.
He's the one who suggests that it's due to discrimination... where's his proven link there?

Ooops, there isn't one.

I'm going to go with common sense. You don't see 90% of black people suffering from depression. You don't see 90% of gay people suffering from depression. Kinda blows his theory out of the water. That leaves one alternative.
 

townsend

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No, actually, that's what you've done. You pulled a silly assertion out of your ass that trans people must have mental problems because they are persecuted, and you have no evidence for that statement.

The article I posted talks about the mental conditions that accompany 90%+ of trans cases, which does not exist in the rest of the LGB world (another "discriminated against" minority). You are just assuming that it's correlation and not causation due to your own biases.

The staggering number of co-existing disorders in the gender dysphoric population sets the transgender group apart from the lesbian, gay, and bisexual population. The deep psychological and psychiatric depression that results from the self-deception of gender identity and the untreated mental disorders has been the major contributor to transgenders’ position at the top of the most-likely-to commit-suicide list.

And

Fast-forward to July 30, 2004, when a review of 100 medical studies delivered another powerful rebuke of surgical genders. David Batty wrote in The Guardian in the UK:
There is no conclusive evidence that sex change operations improve the lives of transsexuals, with many people remaining severely distressed and even suicidal after the operation, according to a medical review conducted exclusively for Guardian Weekend tomorrow.

The review of more than 100 international medical studies of post-operative transsexuals by the University of Birmingham’s aggressive research intelligence facility (Arif) found no robust scientific evidence that gender reassignment surgery is clinically effective.

Some have argued that transgenderism could be due to genetic factors, in a parallel argument to those suggesting a “gay gene.” So far, research has found no such thing for transsexuals. Studies from 2013 and 2009 showed no alterations in the DNA of the main sex-determining genes in transsexuals, proving born-male transgenders are normal males; not a smidgeon of abnormality in their genetic make-up causes them to be transgender. Gender issues are not inherent to the genetic makeup.




Chicken or the egg. :lol

Who can tell what is the root cause here in people believing that fantasy is reality? It's either people telling them that it's fantasy that is causing them to be depressed, or it's something wrong with their brains that make them believe fantasy is reality, that also causes depression and all these other mental disorders. We can't know which it is! Durrr.

This is really a moronic argument on your part. Are you just playing SJW cause you get kicks out of it or something?
And your assuming it's causation and not correlation due to your biases. You want to ignore the fact that this is the most discriminated group of people, and pretend that it has no effect, well sorry but that's faulty logic. Me bringing up the flaws in your assertion isn't any kind of fallacy, it's simply pointing out the worthlessness of your data. And you going "puh-leeze, I know because I know" just proves it was never about imperical data, and all about bias from the get go.

The LGB community has faced similar issues but not nearly as stark, frankly gender is more essential to most people's core identity than sexuality. Gender is a master identifier, something people see the first second they meet you, and filter most other identifiers through. Gay people don't feel trapped in the wrong body, that has a way different effect on someone's psyche than wanting to fuck a person society thinks you can only be buds with.

I don't disagree with the surgery thing. As I've said, I think we are crossing into unethical territory by mutilating people to make their sex appear to match their gender.
 

Clay_Allison

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And your assuming it's causation and not correlation due to your biases. You want to ignore the fact that this is the most discriminated group of people, and pretend that it has no effect, well sorry but that's faulty logic. Me bringing up the flaws in your assertion isn't any kind of fallacy, it's simply pointing out the worthlessness of your data. And you going "puh-leeze, I know because I know" just proves it was never about imperical data, and all about bias from the get go.

The LGB community has faced similar issues but not nearly as stark, frankly gender is more essential to most people's core identity than sexuality. Gender is a master identifier, something people see the first second they meet you, and filter most other identifiers through. Gay people don't feel trapped in the wrong body, that has a way different effect on someone's psyche than wanting to fuck a person society thinks you can only be buds with.

I don't disagree with the surgery thing. As I've said, I think we are crossing into unethical territory by mutilating people to make their sex appear to match their gender.


Not to mention subjecting children to hormonal treatments. That's some crazy shit right there.
 

townsend

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So why doesn't disposition improve after surgery then?
Personally I think it's because surgery isn't a solution. That trans people who seek surgery are falling for the same problems that society has, believing that their physical sex dictates their gender identity.

Even though I think it's thoughtless to write off trans sexuality as a mental illness, I would not necessarily say that about the urge to modify yourself at expense of your physical health. I feel like that is a self destructive urge that results from the gender dysphoria.

Also being psychologically damaged doesn't have a silver bullet fix, healing from that kind of identity crisis can take decades I would assume.
 

Clay_Allison

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Personally I think it's because surgery isn't a solution. That trans people who seek surgery are falling for the same problems that society has, believing that their physical sex dictates their gender identity.

Even though I think it's thoughtless to write off trans sexuality as a mental illness, I would not necessarily say that about the urge to modify yourself at expense of your physical health. I feel like that is a self destructive urge that results from the gender dysphoria.

Also being psychologically damaged doesn't have a silver bullet fix, healing from that kind of identity crisis can take decades I would assume.
That's the thing about mental illness, you can't just take a course of anti-biotics to cure it.
 

L.T. Fan

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Personally I think it's because surgery isn't a solution. That trans people who seek surgery are falling for the same problems that society has, believing that their physical sex dictates their gender identity.

Even though I think it's thoughtless to write off trans sexuality as a mental illness, I would not necessarily say that about the urge to modify yourself at expense of your physical health. I feel like that is a self destructive urge that results from the gender dysphoria.

Also being psychologically damaged doesn't have a silver bullet fix, healing from that kind of identity crisis can take decades I would assume.
Then what will fix them mentally ? Since the battle line is centered on public restrooms do they think that is a fix? That's pretty shallow medical science or is it a way to get their recognition? We recognize they exist so how are they gonna get fixed.
 

townsend

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Then what will fix them mentally ? Since the battle line is centered on public restrooms do they think that is a fix? That's pretty shallow medical science or is it a way to get their recognition? We recognize they exist so how are they gonna get fixed.
Personally I think the restroom is incidental, it's not any more or less important than a dozen other places, it's just where conservatives have decided to make their stand. If North Carolina had written a law banning trans people from using water fountains, that would have been what the debate would be about instead.

It's the same way that banning gay people from being camp counselors was a contentious subject 20 years ago, having a bunch of gay scout masters doesn't fix society, it just combats the hateful assertion that being gay is the same as being a predator.
 

L.T. Fan

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Personally I think the restroom is incidental, it's not any more or less important than a dozen other places, it's just where conservatives have decided to make their stand. If North Carolina had written a law banning trans people from using water fountains, that would have been what the debate would be about instead.

It's the same way that banning gay people from being camp counselors was a contentious subject 20 years ago, having a bunch of gay scout masters doesn't fix society, it just combats the hateful assertion that being gay is the same as being a predator.
The we have come full circle. If it is an arbitrary target by the tranny group simply because they wish to draw a battle line even though there is no benefit to them or their mental condition, then what's the point other than bring attention to themselves? There would not have been a law unless there was a problem with aggression to begin with. It all seems so senseless to create this kind of chaos and polarize people even more.
 

townsend

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The we have come full circle. If it is an arbitrary target by the tranny group simply because they wish to draw a battle line even though there is no benefit to them or their mental condition, then what's the point other than bring attention to themselves? There would not have been a law unless there was a problem with aggression to begin with. It all seems so senseless to create this kind of chaos and polarize people even more.
The law isn't coming from trans people just the nights who think they're perverts. Just the same way that no one fought for gay people to be scout masters
until someone was not allowed to because they were gay. Bigots are drawing the lines, not trans people.
 

L.T. Fan

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The law isn't coming from trans people just the nights who think they're perverts. Just the same way that no one fought for gay people to be scout masters
until someone was not allowed to because they were gay. Bigots are drawing the lines, not trans people.
Get real. You don't draw a line until a battle has started. This country went for many years with out having to create this kind of law until recently. It didn't come about until the aggression started.
 

L.T. Fan

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The law isn't coming from trans people just the nights who think they're perverts. Just the same way that no one fought for gay people to be scout masters
until someone was not allowed to because they were gay. Bigots are drawing the lines, not trans people.
I don't hear anyone in these discussions saying they want to eradicate these people. All I hear is don't mix the public toilets. All the other issues you are raising about bigotry and such is just so much prejudicial flak.
 

Cowboysrock55

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Like women entering the work force, blacks getting to use the same facilities as whites, and gays getting married, bathrooms are the point where acceptance isn't just people just saying they accept something, but actually have to adapt to the needs of the group gaining acceptance.
It isn't about acceptance or equality as you suggest at all. It's about special rules for special people. Equality means everyone is treated the same which is not at all what is being asked for. What trans people are really asking is that they be allowed to be treated differently then everyone else. Which is what always bothers me.
 

Kbrown

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The law isn't coming from trans people just the nights who think they're perverts. Just the same way that no one fought for gay people to be scout masters
until someone was not allowed to because they were gay. Bigots are drawing the lines, not trans people.
I mentioned it before, but Houston's debate on the issue started with our gay activist former mayor wanting to cultivate her legacy. People who disagreed with the act were portrayed as bigots then too. I lean toward the default of not needing laws for such obscure nonsense, but there is an element on the left that will make you a pariah for not hopping on board with whatever became an essential human right at last Tuesday's meeting.
 

Cotton

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So, trans people aren't psychologically unstable, yet they take years to recover from their psychological instability. Makes perfect sense.
 
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