2016 POTUS Election Thread

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Cowboysrock55

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It is interesting to note that UTEP has some of the lowest tuition in the state, simply because their students can't afford higher tuition otherwise.
This is the problem. You can't call it a free market system when it isn't. Student Loans are the main problem in the whole system. Schools can rip off students because government backed student loans allow them to. So to call it a free market problem defies any sense or logic. The problem from the very start is the government involvement that removes it from a free market system.

Not saying a free market college education system wouldn't have it's problems too. But what you see now is a result of the government paying for shit. It's what you always see when it comes to the government paying for shit. Costs go way up because the government is footing the bill.
 

L.T. Fan

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How about academically qualifying students that apply for loans. There are some who will take the loan and stay around as long as they can pretending to be interested students.
 

townsend

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How about academically qualifying students that apply for loans. There are some who will take the loan and stay around as long as they can pretending to be interested students.
A couple problems. One being that it's not tough to qualify for college, and that arbitrary distinction is made more at arbitrary by the fact that colleges very a lot from scams, to diploma mills, to community college, to state college, to private colleges. In some way or another pretty much anyone who could be deemed as qualified.

I think the biggest problem though is that we've tried this for over a decade and it's failing desperately. As the very very coddled boomers finally retire, the work force is going to be ill equipped to take on that burden thanks to the boomers running education into the ground.
 

L.T. Fan

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A couple problems. One being that it's not tough to qualify for college, and that arbitrary distinction is made more at arbitrary by the fact that colleges very a lot from scams, to diploma mills, to community college, to state college, to private colleges. In some way or another pretty much anyone who could be deemed as qualified.

I think the biggest problem though is that we've tried this for over a decade and it's failing desperately. As the very very coddled boomers finally retire, the work force is going to be ill equipped to take on that burden thanks to the boomers running education into the ground.
Have the loan applicants be tested apart from the school. Have an independent agency administer the tests. Take it out of the hands of the schools.
 

Jiggyfly

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Have the loan applicants be tested apart from the school. Have an independent agency administer the tests. Take it out of the hands of the schools.
Man you really missed the point.

And unqualified applicants are not really the problem they usually wash out in a year.
 

Jiggyfly

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This is the problem. You can't call it a free market system when it isn't. Student Loans are the main problem in the whole system. Schools can rip off students because government backed student loans allow them to. So to call it a free market problem defies any sense or logic. The problem from the very start is the government involvement that removes it from a free market system.

Not saying a free market college education system wouldn't have it's problems too. But what you see now is a result of the government paying for shit. It's what you always see when it comes to the government paying for shit. Costs go way up because the government is footing the bill.
Um no.:unsure

A free market is a system in which the prices for goods and services are set freely by consent between vendors and consumers, in which the laws and forces of supply and demand are free from any intervention by a government, price-setting monopoly, or other authority. It is a result of a need being, then the need being met. A free market contrasts with a regulated market, in which government intervenes in supply and demand through non-market methods such as laws creating barriers to market entry or price fixing.
 

Cowboysrock55

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Jesus, economics is just so far beyond your understanding. What do you think a government backed student loan is? By your very definition (That you posted) that is an interference in the supply and demand. So are federal student grants and scholarships. God, I hope you didn't waste money on a college education because they screwed you.
 

Jiggyfly

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Jesus, economics is just so far beyond your understanding. What do you think a government backed student loan is? By your very definition (That you posted) that is an interference in the supply and demand. So are federal student grants and scholarships. God, I hope you didn't waste money on a college education because they screwed you.
I knew you ere going to come in with that same bullshit econ argument again.

A government-backed student loan does not restrict market entry or set prices for goods or services.

A loan is a loan, please explain how they restrict anything in this process. they sure as hell do not restrict the price of colleges or demand these days.

Using your definition nothing is free market as long as the government is regulating interest rates through the fed.

And your argument is stupid anyway if you think a good college education is based on what you got in a econ class.:lol
 

L.T. Fan

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Man you really missed the point.

And unqualified applicants are not really the problem they usually wash out in a year.
It's part of the problem. I have worked directly with government guaranteed loans at a point in time. What is your experience? A student can borrow a lot of money at the start and never pay a cent.
 

Cowboysrock55

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I knew you ere going to come in with that same bullshit econ argument again.

A government-backed student loan does not restrict market entry or set prices for goods or services.
It's not a bullshit econ argument. You're trying to talk economics with people and then display your total lack of understanding of economics.

Because the government backed student loans impact market prices. The government gives out money to people to go to school. It shifts the entire demand curve. Thus not making it a free market any longer. Here is a real simple example of the impact, which hopefully even you can follow. Take away government backed student loans. Would the same number of people who currently go to college afford to be able to go to college at the current costs? Of course not. So yes, the government is changing the prices. When the government artificially changes the price or demand of a product then it is no longer a free market. You are right on one thing, there really aren't free markets in the United States because of over regulation.

And honestly, if someone can't understand basic concepts like these they probably shouldn't be wasting their money on a college education. That's all I'm saying.
 

Jiggyfly

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It's part of the problem. I have worked directly with government guaranteed loans at a point in time. What is your experience? A student can borrow a lot of money at the start and never pay a cent.
That was not what Townsend was talking about.

Yes they can borrow a lot of money but it's not 50,000- 100,000 plus that really puts a hurt on the system when you complete 4 years and grad school.

As for the point you missed, it does not matter if you have outside testers if colleges will just adjust the admission requirements to get people in.
 

Jiggyfly

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Because the government backed student loans impact market prices. The government gives out money to people to go to school. It shifts the entire demand curve. Thus not making it a free market any longer. Here is a real simple example of the impact, which hopefully even you can follow. Take away government backed student loans. Would the same number of people who currently go to college afford to be able to go to college at the current costs? Of course not. So yes, the government is changing the prices. When the government artificially changes the price or demand of a product then it is no longer a free market. You are right on one thing, there really aren't free markets in the United States because of over regulation.

And honestly, if someone can't understand basic concepts like these they probably shouldn't be wasting their money on a college education. That's all I'm saying.
I understand that concept and hinted at it before in this discussion and this argument can be used across most of the financial markets.

If the gov did not keep interest rates artificially low there would be less activity in the market place from the stock markets to construction.

How Interest Rates Affect the U.S. Stock and Bond Markets
Investors have a wide variety of investment options. When comparing the average dividend yield on a blue-chip stock to the interest rate on a certificate of deposit (CD) or the yield on a U.S. Treasury bond (T-bonds), investors will often choose the option that provides the highest rate of return. The current federal funds rate tends to determine how investors will invest their money, as the returns on both CDs and T-bonds are affected by this rate.

Rising or falling interest rates also affect consumer and business psychology. When interest rates are rising, both businesses and consumers will cut back on spending. This will cause earnings to fall and stock prices to drop. On the other hand, when interest rates have fallen significantly, consumers and businesses will increase spending, causing stock prices to rise.
Changes in real interest rates affect the public’s demand for goods and services mainly by altering borrowing costs, the availability of bank loans, the wealth of households, and foreign exchange rates.

For example, a decrease in real interest rates lowers the cost of borrowing; that leads businesses to increase investment spending, and it leads households to buy durable goods, such as autos and new homes.

In addition, lower real rates and a healthy economy may increase banks’ willingness to lend to businesses and households. This may increase spending, especially by smaller borrowers who have few sources of credit other than banks.

Lower real rates also make common stocks and other such investments more attractive than bonds and other debt instruments; as a result, common stock prices tend to rise. Households with stocks in their portfolios find that the value of their holdings is higher, and this increase in wealth makes them willing to spend more. Higher stock prices also make it more attractive for businesses to invest in plant and equipment by issuing stock.

In the short run, lower real interest rates in the U.S. also tend to reduce the foreign exchange value of the dollar, which lowers the prices of the U.S.-produced goods we sell abroad and raises the prices we pay for foreign-produced goods. This leads to higher aggregate spending on goods and services produced in the U.S.

The increase in aggregate demand for the economy’s output through these different channels leads firms to raise production and employment, which in turn increases business spending on capital goods even further by making greater demands on existing factory capacity. It also boosts consumption further because of the income gains that result from the higher level of economic output.
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Read more: How Interest Rates AffecThe U.S. Markets | Investopedia http://www.investopedia.com/articles/stocks/09/how-interest-rates-affect-markets.asp#ixzz40xOtSERI
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So according to you there is no such thing as a free market.
 

townsend

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Man you really missed the point.

And unqualified applicants are not really the problem they usually wash out in a year.
that was me (kind of) I quit college after a year in 2005 and paid off the 5k in debt I accrued in 2008. Dropping out of college was the best decision of my life.

Most of the people I know who are hurting were people who finished degrees in the arts. Then came out to the unforgiving maw of despair that was the post 2008 entry level job market.

It's part of the problem. I have worked directly with government guaranteed loans at a point in time. What is your experience? A student can borrow a lot of money at the start and never pay a cent.
I have had a dozen friends struggling to pay through their students loans. A bunch of them joined the military expressly for that purpose. My Fiancé (despite being very well qualified) is 50K in the hole from her student debt.
So that's my experience. I've never ever seen someone "never pay a cent" I've seen a few unable to pay while they struggle to make enough to survive as recent college grads. Meanwhile the debt just sits and festers. Piling up interest. They're forced into a worse spot than they would have been without a degree.
I pretty much will be effectively a sole provider even when my partner starts making money, because it'll all go to pay for the education that has failed to pay any of her bills.
 
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L.T. Fan

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That was not what Townsend was talking about.

Yes they can borrow a lot of money but it's not 50,000- 100,000 plus that really puts a hurt on the system when you complete 4 years and grad school.

As for the point you missed, it does not matter if you have outside testers if colleges will just adjust the admission requirements to get people in.
It's part of what Townsend was talking about. He referenced that schools found ways to make virtually every student eligible to enter college by manipulating the system. I responded that possibly the testing for this should be taken out of the hands of schools. Then those who get start up loans would been screened better and avoid that much of the waste. You are just so pumped to jump on something you aren't reading the context.
 

L.T. Fan

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that was me (kind of) I quit college after a year in 2005 and paid off the 5k in debt I accrued in 2008. Dropping out of college was the best decision of my life.

Most of the people I know who are hurting were people who finished degrees in the arts. Then came out to the unforgiving maw of despair that was the post 2008 entry level job market.



I have had a dozen friends struggling to pay through their students loans. A bunch of them joined the military expressly for that purpose. My Fiancé (despite being very well qualified) is 50K in the hole from her student debt.
So that's my experience. I've never ever seen someone "never pay a cent" I've seen a few unable to pay while they struggle to make enough to survive as recent college grads. Meanwhile the debt just sits and festers. Piling up interest. They're forced into a worse spot than they would have been without a degree.
I pretty much will be effectively a sole provider even when my partner starts making money, because it'll all go to pay for the education that has failed to pay any of her bills.
All I can tell you is that a school debt should be evaluated like any other debt. It will have to be repaid at some point. It's no different than making a decision to buy a car or anything else. Young people are eager to go to college for various reasons. Some give little thought to how the debt will affect them later on. A great deal of their rationale is when they graduate they will land a great job and all will be right with the world. It's a sad commentary but it is reality that this probably won't happen. There are too many in the Job market that will be better qualified.

Maybe student loans are too easy to get. That is what I personally think but if anyone starts to strip away the programs it will be used as a political football. The reality is that student loans are real debt and are not viewed seriously enough by the school or student because they are peddled almost like an entitlement program.

There is no solution once the debt has been piled up so the obvious solution is to be more diligent before the loan is granted by both student and school but don't expect the school to be realistic about how hard it will be to retire the liability.
 
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L.T. Fan

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The earlier comment of some not paying a cent was the group that starts but drops out before graduation.
 
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