The Minimum Wage Debate

jeebs

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Actually no. Economic efficiency has nothing to do with a cheap labor force. Slavery is actually bad for economic efficiency, it's just good if you like really bad wealth distribution. AKA all the wealth going to slave owners and none going to the slaves.
Great point, efficient for the owner is not the same as efficient for society.
 

L.T. Fan

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Immigration, legal or illegal, essential for economic efficiency?
An argument can be made both ways on this area. For labor and keeping cost down it is good for employers and ultimately the consumer but the full effect of government cost isn't truly known ( or released) regarding entitlement expenses.
 

Newt

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Immigration, legal or illegal, essential for economic efficiency?
That is a tough question, it really is. It's hard because we will never know how the economy operates without immigrants.
 

Cowboysrock55

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An argument can be made both ways on this area. For labor and keeping cost down it is good for employers and ultimately the consumer but the full effect of government cost isn't truly known ( or released) regarding entitlement expenses.
This is exactly correct. In an ideal economy where you eliminate entitlement programs immigration is absolutely best for the economy. The easiest way to look at it is like this. If the most efficient farmer in the world is in Mexico but the best farm land is in America, then the most efficient solution would be for the farmer to be able to freely get that job even though he lives in another country. In an ideal economic world you would have everyone doing the jobs they are most efficient at and then trading with each other. Not allowing immigration prevents this.

On the other hand entitlement programs are contrary to an efficient economy. Suddenly instead of someone immigrating for the purposes of a job or bettering the economy they are immigrating for government handouts. This is where it becomes a problem.
 

Clay_Allison

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On the other hand entitlement programs are contrary to an efficient economy. Suddenly instead of someone immigrating for the purposes of a job or bettering the economy they are immigrating for government handouts. This is where it becomes a problem.
There's also people who wish to use their anonymity to operate criminal enterprises in a more lucrative environment, or simply don't acknowledge or intend to follow laws that are different than what they are used to. If we import even one criminal for every 10 workers, that's a huge cost to society.
 

Cowboysrock55

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There's also people who wish to use their anonymity to operate criminal enterprises in a more lucrative environment, or simply don't acknowledge or intend to follow laws that are different than what they are used to. If we import even one criminal for every 10 workers, that's a huge cost to society.
Well things like national security are a slightly different issue as well.
 

Cotton

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Well, this thread got boring.
 

Jiggyfly

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Well, this thread got boring.
Not much to say when people are entrenched in there positions.

And for the record I think it should be raised but paying fast food workers 15 per hr is ridiculous.

But so is 7.25 or whatever it is.
 

Newt

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Not much to say when people are entrenched in there positions.

And for the record I think it should be raised but paying fast food workers 15 per hr is ridiculous.

But so is 7.25 or whatever it is.
Why is $7.25/hr ridiculous for flipping burgers? There's no skill involved, they aren't chefs or even fry cooks. And if $7.25/hr isn't acceptable I'm interested in what is acceptable and what effects it will have on the economy.
 

Cowboysrock55

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Why is $7.25/hr ridiculous for flipping burgers? There's no skill involved, they aren't chefs or even fry cooks. And if $7.25/hr isn't acceptable I'm interested in what is acceptable and what effects it will have on the economy.
It's not ridiculous at all. If the service the employee was providing was more valuable to the employer they would pay them more. If the employee can earn more money somewhere else then they should apply to work somewhere else.
 

L.T. Fan

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It's not ridiculous at all. If the service the employee was providing was more valuable to the employer they would pay them more. If the employee can earn more money somewhere else then they should apply to work somewhere else.
Yep. Let the marketplace dictate the pay structure. If it is truly dictated by the markrtplace the minimum wage will become a regional number.
 

Jiggyfly

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Why is $7.25/hr ridiculous for flipping burgers? There's no skill involved, they aren't chefs or even fry cooks. And if $7.25/hr isn't acceptable I'm interested in what is acceptable and what effects it will have on the economy.
Nobody just flips burgers anymore and that mindset is why this is a hard discussion.

I don't know what is acceptable but somehow I believe a company losing some profit margin will be offset by there being a more money in the hands of consumers.

And in this type of economy that depends on consumer spending how does making more money hurt it?
 

Cotton

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Nobody just flips burgers anymore and that mindset is why this is a hard discussion.

I don't know what is acceptable but somehow I believe a company losing some profit margin will be offset by there being a more money in the hands of consumers.

And in this type of economy that depends on consumer spending how does making more money hurt it?
If you think for one second that a company would just eat the loss and not pass it along to the consumer, then you're right, no use in having this discussion.
 

Newt

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Nobody just flips burgers anymore and that mindset is why this is a hard discussion.

I don't know what is acceptable but somehow I believe a company losing some profit margin will be offset by there being a more money in the hands of consumers.

And in this type of economy that depends on consumer spending how does making more money hurt it?
For the person that sacks my groceries, that's all they do, maybe an occasional price check, but for the most part there is no required skill set. Don't put the chicken with the beef. Cold stuff goes together and heavy stuff goes on bottom. All that is in a 30 minute orientation video and the majority of the kids still can't do it right. Why should they make more than $7.25/hr?

If you can sack my groceries correctly, repeatedly, you will get noticed and become a cashier. Maybe you get a raise, and you don't lose money out of your till so they make you a manager on the front end, you get another raise. And so on and so on.

My point is, I don't see the need to pay people more for crappy service, which is what 99 percent of minimum wage employees give.
 

Jiggyfly

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For the person that sacks my groceries, that's all they do, maybe an occasional price check, but for the most part there is no required skill set. Don't put the chicken with the beef. Cold stuff goes together and heavy stuff goes on bottom. All that is in a 30 minute orientation video and the majority of the kids still can't do it right. Why should they make more than $7.25/hr?

If you can sack my groceries correctly, repeatedly, you will get noticed and become a cashier. Maybe you get a raise, and you don't lose money out of your till so they make you a manager on the front end, you get another raise. And so on and so on.

My point is, I don't see the need to pay people more for crappy service, which is what 99 percent of minimum wage employees give.
You actually think that sacking groceries is all those guys do?:lol

Those guys stock shelves as well as clean, you really have no idea of what people actually do in their jobs and is why these discussions are actually pointless with people like you.

As for the 99 percent comment.:picard
 

Jiggyfly

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If you think for one second that a company would just eat the loss and not pass it along to the consumer, then you're right, no use in having this discussion.
I never said they would eat the loss.

My feelings are that in a civilized society profit should not be the end all and who is exactly hurt if employees get some of those profits by higher wages.

No it's not pure capitalism but why is pure capitalism some holy grail.
 

Cotton

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You actually think that sacking groceries is all those guys do?:lol

Those guys stock shelves as well as clean, you really have no idea of what people actually do in their jobs and is why these discussions are actually pointless with people like you.

As for the 99 percent comment.:picard
Uhh, sackers just sack groceries. I did it in high school. The stockers are a step up the food chain.
 

Cotton

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I never said they would eat the loss.

My feelings are that in a civilized society profit should not be the end all and who is exactly hurt if employees get some of those profits by higher wages.

No it's not pure capitalism but why is pure capitalism some holy grail.
Well, let's see, employees getting some of the profits would be the company eating the losses that would come from the minimum wage being raised, so yeah...
 

Jiggyfly

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Uhh, sackers just sack groceries. I did it in high school. The stockers are a step up the food chain.
No grocery just has sackers anymore they stock also during the day as needed just ask them.

And who exactly is cleaning during the day?
 

Jiggyfly

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Well, let's see, employees getting some of the profits would be the company eating the losses that would come from the minimum wage being raised, so yeah...
What?

I have no issue with some prices raised but I have a real issue with profit margins being the end all.
 
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