Tony Romo: This is one of the most complete teams I’ve been around

lostxn

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Agree to disagree. Getting behind the wheel when drunk might as well be premeditated murder as far as I'm concerned. And this is coming from an alcoholic. I have zero tolerance for drunk driving. Kill someone while drunk driving? Life in prison/death penalty, IMO.
If he had killed a family of four driving home - which he could have easily done - I'd be with you. His friend got in that car, and it makes him partially at fault as well. He's wasn't an innocent bystander.

Still, purposefully killing someone is morally worse than accidentally killing someone and the law appropriately makes that distinction. As it should.

Ever heard of OJ Simpson? Maybe Michael Vick?

Football players can get away with a lot and still be allowed to play. A whole lot.

*I realize that OJ was already retired, but everyone just knew that OJ was going away for life, and there are people that said Vick would never play again.
Wow way to take two terrible examples. One guy lost his job as an NFL broadcaster and his only connection to the NFL thereafter was a bust in Canton (which is pretty hard to take away). Oh and he wasn't even convicted.

The other guy was involved in dog fighting. Dog fighting it awful - disgusting. It ain't murder though.

Ray Lewis would have been a better example. He covered up a murder. Still, big difference from pulling the trigger.
 

Cotton

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Driving drunk isn't an accident.
 

junk

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I guess it would be hypocritical of me, but if by some act of a divine being we won a Super Bowl again, I would be an insufferable homer...again.
Oh me too, but no way could I watch the trophy presentation. I'd just have to go to bed happy because watching Jerry's old mug up there preening with the trophy would be tough.

I want the team to win, but deep down I know they won't win (or won't win consistently) the way they are structured. Almost need them to bottom out and the stadium to start to empty out so Jerry makes changes.
 

Bob Roberts

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The Cowboys winning makes me happy, but it also makes Jerry happy, and I want Jerry to suffer.

It's an incredible conundrum as a fan.
 

Cotton

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No, but the accident was an accident.
Neither is anything not planned. But, the lead up decisions to that accident change how that accident is categorized. An accident is one thing, but an accident that you could have avoided by not driving drunk is another. I don't think one equates to the other at all.
 

Smitty

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Neither is anything not planned. But, the lead up decisions to that accident change how that accident is categorized. An accident is one thing, but an accident that you could have avoided by not driving drunk is another. I don't think one equates to the other at all.
It also doesn't equate to harm done deliberately.

It's mostly on par with negligence, in terms of a mental state.
 

Cotton

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It also doesn't equate to harm done deliberately.

It's mostly on par with negligence, in terms of a mental state.
He deliberately got in that vehicle and drove. Risking the lives of not only his passenger but also the other poor souls that happened to be on the road with him.

~prep for 50 page debate about the difference between deliberate and accidental~
 

Cujo

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Oh me too, but no way could I watch the trophy presentation. I'd just have to go to bed happy because watching Jerry's old mug up there preening with the trophy would be tough.

I want the team to win, but deep down I know they won't win (or won't win consistently) the way they are structured. Almost need them to bottom out and the stadium to start to empty out so Jerry makes changes.

I agree on all points.
 

Smitty

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He deliberately got in that vehicle and drove. Risking the lives of not only his passenger but also the other poor souls that happened to be on the road with him.

~prep for 50 page debate about the difference between deliberate and accidental~
Yes, behaving in a risky manner but not desiring the outcome is called negligence.

It does not equate to harm done deliberately, such as deliberately trying to murder someone. There is a difference. Criminal laws have codified this kind of thing by calling it "general intent" where you mean to do the act but not achieve the outcome, versus specific intent crimes where you actually desire the outcome.

But I still see it as really more like negligence.
 
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Cotton

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Yes, behaving in a risky manner but not desiring the outcome is called negligence.
How would a jury rule if a drunk 19 year old pulled out a gun in a bar and killed a person on accident?

Would it be called negligence?
 

Smitty

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How would a jury rule if a drunk 19 year old pulled out a gun in a bar and killed a person on accident?

Would it be called negligence?
Well negligence is a civil term really moreso than a criminal one, but the basic concept is criminalized by what is called "General Intent." General intent means you have acted recklessly or negligently.

If you break down those terms further, negligence means you should have realized the danger. Reckless means you consciously disregard the danger. The amount of non-realization usually hinges on what the likelihood of the damage is.

So how did the drunk 19 year old kill someone? Did he get totally wasted then pull out a gun and start firing in different directions in a crowded room? I'd call that reckless. How can you not know that firing a gun into a crowd of people is gonna hurt someone? You'd have to be almost deliberately ignoring what is a near-certainty of harm. That's reckless. It's considered much more serious than a negligent-level act.

Or did the 19 year old instead just have the gun out while he was drunk, was playing with it, but then dropped it and it went off and killed someone? That's more like negligence. He should have known not to be playing with a gun in a bar while he was drunk, but his action was accidental, it wasn't like he even meant to pull the trigger, and you can hardly say it was a "near certainty" that he'd drop the gun and go off. People hold things all the time when they are drunk and don't drop them. There is a "danger" here that he is playing with, but it's hardly a near certainty that playing with the gun was gonna end up hurting someone.

I consider DUI more like negligence. It's not a near certainty that someone gets hurt. In fact, the chances of an accident happening when you drive drunk are probably not even 1% (especially if you are in the .08-.10 range). The increased likelihood of an accident while DUI looks really bad but only in comparison to the fact that the chance of an accident happening when you AREN'T drunk is probably like 0.000000000000001%. So it might be a thousand times more likely than if you are sober, but it's still hardly anything close to a certainty.

In the end it's really the disregard of something that doesn't have a very large likelihood of occurring. It's on par with negligence in my book.

Like I said, they have criminalized that with "General Intent" crimes, but there should be a stark difference between that and specific intent crimes.
 
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Lotuseater

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OMFG Schmitake ......

Everytime I read anything schmitty writes, for some reason I picture Bob Sagat taking a dump with a particularly pleased expression on his face....

Weird, I know.
 

Smitty

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Agree to disagree. Getting behind the wheel when drunk might as well be premeditated murder as far as I'm concerned. And this is coming from an alcoholic. I have zero tolerance for drunk driving. Kill someone while drunk driving? Life in prison/death penalty, IMO.
Yeah, I really disagree with that because I don't like the concept of outcome-based penalties. I guess you need it sometimes (murder versus attempted murder), but the difference in penalties is waaaaay to varying for a DUI versus if you get in an accident while DUI and hurt someone.

A person who drives drunk and doesn't kill someone because they got lucky should have similar criminal culpability as someone who drives drunk and does kill someone, because it's the same action.

And since I'd say just about everyone has driven drunk at some point, that would mean we all deserve to be locked up for years.
 
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Smitty

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Besides, I'd like to know what better we have to talk about. It's been dead around here recently.
 

Smitty

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Only to you. You fricked up a perfectly good thread. I was even thinking about homering out. But nooooooooooo....
Well feel free to not respond to me and go back to homering out. I'm not gonna argue with myself.
 
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