Archer: Ezekiel Elliott ready to make some noise after quiet offseason

Cowboysrock55

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What games has Dak won when the defense has completely shut down the run?

I'm not disputing that Dak can win when we can rely at least somewhat on the running game.
Cardinals game, Chiefs game, and second Giants games last year just to name a few.

Our formula is going to require a bunch of runs. Even when its largely ineffective. But in those game our lead backs YPC was terrible.
 

ravidubey

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My firm position on Prescott is that he can't make plays on his own with his arm.
This has been obvious for anyone not wearing royal blue and metallic silver tinted glasses.

At least so far.

It's possible Dak grows into Russell Wilson, but he's far from that now.
 

Genghis Khan

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Cardinals game, Chiefs game, and second Giants games last year just to name a few.

Our formula is going to require a bunch of runs. Even when its largely ineffective. But in those game our lead backs YPC was terrible.

Our main running backs had 80, 104, and 109 yards rushing respectively in those 3 games.

We may not be on the same page here because those don't qualify as the running game being shut down to me.
 

Cowboysrock55

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Our main running backs had 80, 104, and 109 yards rushing respectively in those 3 games.

We may not be on the same page here because those don't qualify as the running game being shut down to me.
80 yards rushing, 3.6 ypc (Again, lots of carries is part of the system, the system that Dak wins in)
93 yards in the Chiefs game with a killer 3.4 ypc (Yep, that's 3.4 ypc, which is really bad)
62 yards in the second Giants game with a whopping 3.3 ypc out of our top rusher.

I'm not sure where you're getting your stats from but those are the real ones. Again, 3.3, 3.4, and 3.6 ypc are straight up bad. If our RB averaged that on a season you'd be screaming for him to be out of the NFL.

By the way, you can throw the Oakland game in there last season as well. Morris had 62 yards in that game.
 

1bigfan13

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This has been obvious for anyone not wearing royal blue and metallic silver tinted glasses.

At least so far.

It's possible Dak grows into Russell Wilson, but he's far from that now.
I'm anxious to see what he looks like now. I've seen quite a few quotes, not just from team officials or homer DFW media members, but from national media members who say that he's worked his tail off to clean up his mechanics and that he'll be a lot better this year.

That's all well and good, but to truly excel at the QB position, he's going to have to get a lot better with the mental aspect of the game. Success at the QB position is largely dependent upon a player's ability from the neck up.

So I'm eager to see if he's taken a step forward in that department.
 

Genghis Khan

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80 yards rushing, 3.6 ypc (Again, lots of carries is part of the system, the system that Dak wins in)
93 yards in the Chiefs game with a killer 3.4 ypc (Yep, that's 3.4 ypc, which is really bad)
62 yards in the second Giants game with a whopping 3.3 ypc out of our top rusher.

I'm not sure where you're getting your stats from but those are the real ones. Again, 3.3, 3.4, and 3.6 ypc are straight up bad. If our RB averaged that on a season you'd be screaming for him to be out of the NFL.

By the way, you can throw the Oakland game in there last season as well. Morris had 62 yards in that game.
We're not on the same page here.

I gave you the real stats, not cherry picked to make your argument. Those are the team rushing stats (minus QB, which I didn't include).

Unless it's like 2 yards per carry, the YPC are more or less irrelevant. If you run on first and second down at 3.3 or 3.4 yards, that's third and about 3.5. That's not a difficult conversion. That's not a good YPC but it's not "shut down." YPC is useful at the extremes but it's an overrated stat otherwise.

We had plenty of yards rushing in each of those games to keep the defense honest.

In truth it'll be rare with this team that our running game is shut down.

But there have been a couple times. Off the top of my head, the Denver game for one. That game didn't go well for anybody, and honestly I blame the coaches as much as anybody.

The fact remains that I don't think Dak has proven he can win when the running game is shut down. Like truly shut down, not 80-110 yards. Volume matters A LOT with the running game.

Even if there are one or two games in his pro career where the running game was shut down and Dak won the game for us (not the defense or special teams, literally Dak), one or two games isn't enough in mind as a small sample size to constitute "proof". I don't remember it happening yet, but I could be wrong.

All I'm saying is it remains to be seen, not that he can't do it.
 

boozeman

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Looks like he is stepping forward as a leader as well.
 

Cowboysrock55

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All I'm saying is it remains to be seen, not that he can't do it.
Yeah we are talking about two way different things. I said Dak has proven he can win with our current offensive formula. Which is to run the ball no matter what and allow Daks game to play off of it. He has proven pretty clearly that within that formula he can win a high percentage of games.

You're talking about can Dak win when he is the only guy who shows up. When the run game sucks dick (means the Oline does as well) and the defense plays like shit, can Dak do everything on his own. And yeah, it's a team game, most QBs will lose in that situation. And frankly you won't see examples regardless right now because our offensive line is too good. It takes a total out classing in terms of coaching for our running game to fail at an epically high level. If we were a team building around slinging the ball 50 times a game that would be different. Because those teams don't even make a real attempt to run the ball.
 

ravidubey

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All I'm saying is it remains to be seen, not that he can't do it.
Agreed.

Wilson was in the same boat, a smart young QB bouyed by a great team who made enough right moves to win.

Now he’s far and away become the most dangerous weapon on that squad, always threatening run while still delivering killer passes. If his team knew how to acquire better receiving talent (they are still better at developing receivers than us btw, which is sad), he might be unstoppable.

Ben Roethlisberger had a similar journey.

Dak desperately needs help from the defense IMO to have a chance at following suit. He’s not going to be a Rodgers, Romo, Rivers, Brees type of passer.
 

Cowboysrock55

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Agreed.

Wilson was in the same boat, a smart young QB bouyed by a great team who made enough right moves to win.

Now he’s far and away become the most dangerous weapon on that squad, always threatening run while still delivering killer passes. If his team knew how to acquire better receiving talent (they are still better at developing receivers than us btw, which is sad), he might be unstoppable.

Ben Roethlisberger had a similar journey.

Dak desperately needs help from the defense IMO to have a chance at following suit. He’s not going to be a Rodgers, Romo, Rivers, Brees type of passer.
Even Romo couldn't overcome bad defense.

But yeah Wilson has turned into a one man show. That team can't block for shit any more. Which turns into they can't run for shit either. So Wilson is literally forced to do everything on his own at this point. Which is in stark contrast to his early part of his career. When he had a stud rushing attack and an elite defense to make things easier in him.

I also love what the Seahawks do at WR. Get athletic guys who can get open. Guys that aren't divas or take up massive cap space. They just have a bunch of very good WRs. Defenses don't look at the Seahawks WRs and think if we shut down one guy we shut their passing game down. The defense never knows who is going to break their back.
 

Cowboysrock55

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Even if there are one or two games in his pro career where the running game was shut down and Dak won the game for us (not the defense or special teams, literally Dak), one or two games isn't enough in mind as a small sample size to constitute "proof". I don't remember it happening yet, but I could be wrong.
This is what I was referring to. You didn't use the exact word bad. But any game I show Dak won with a bad running game I can already see the built in excuse that the defense won the game.
 

Genghis Khan

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This is what I was referring to. You didn't use the exact word bad. But any game I show Dak won with a bad running game I can already see the built in excuse that the defense won the game.
I'm talking very specifically though like defensive or special teams scores that are the difference in the game, or our offensive scores were set up inside the opponents 20 by turnovers or returns, that kind of thing.
 

ravidubey

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I also love what the Seahawks do at WR. Get athletic guys who can get open. Guys that aren't divas or take up massive cap space. They just have a bunch of very good WRs. Defenses don't look at the Seahawks WRs and think if we shut down one guy we shut their passing game down. The defense never knows who is going to break their back.
This is the secret of the new NFL elite.
 
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