Sturm: How the stats lie about the Cowboys defense

UncleMilti

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The 3rd has been better recently with picks like Tyrone Crawford, Maliek Collins and DeMarco Murray. The problem is when they start getting cute and use 3rd rounders to move up like they did for Lawrence.

The 2nd is still a complete shit show though.
Hell even Chaz Green in the third round is starting to look decent. We get more out of the third round then we do the second. Hopefully that all ends next year when Jaylon Smith steps on the field and is a stud.
Yep, recent history has been good, but there have been some terrible 3rds along the way, including using the pick as trade bait to move up and down the draft board looking for that Glory Hole.

Some of the 3rd rounders weren't even decent depth picks.
 

Carp

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It was cute to move up for Lawrence?

I don't understand the logic I would think he has been worth that move.

He has outperformed any other DE taken in the 1st 4 rounds of that draft considering the injury and suspension.

Or the talent around him.
Not really high praise...that draft sucked with DEs.
 

Jiggyfly

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Not really high praise...that draft sucked with DEs.
Yes it did and we looked to have gotten the best of the bunch or would you rather have not addressed DE at all?

So was moving up for Lawrence cute in your opinion?
 

Simpleton

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It was cute to move up for Lawrence?

I don't understand the logic I would think he has been worth that move.

He has outperformed any other DE taken in the 1st 4 rounds of that draft considering the injury and suspension.

Or the talent around him.
Yes, I would say it was cute.

Lawrence is a fine player, definitely not "excellent" yet although he could end up there, and that's why I didn't outright bash the move, but I don't think you can say the trade was definitely a success either.

Two of the main guys I wanted at our pick in the 2nd that year were Kony Ealy (who is right there with Lawrence by the way) and Timmy Jernigan who has been a very good starting DT for the Ravens, and arguably a better player than Lawrence at this point.

Then of course you have whatever we would've done in the 3rd also.

This isn't so much an indictment on Lawrence as a player, he's definitely a nice piece to have, it's more of a statement on how the team doesn't seem to value picks and have been all too willing to just throw a 2nd or 3rd at a team in trade up when they see a shiny object they want without taking a step back and looking at who else could be available 15-20 picks later.
 

Cowboysrock55

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Lawrence is a fine player, definitely not "excellent" yet although he could end up there, and that's why I didn't outright bash the move, but I don't think you can say the trade was definitely a success either.
I'm just excited for him to be back after this week.
 

Carp

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Yes it did and we looked to have gotten the best of the bunch or would you rather have not addressed DE at all?

So was moving up for Lawrence cute in your opinion?
Show me all these great pass rushers DEs that you are talking about then. You can't because there isn't any. I am not saying that they should not have addressed the position either, so don't play that silly game either. We could have taken Jernigan and Trai Turner there...who we liked.

You can call Mack a LB if you like, but he is really a DE. Mack is the much better player. Let's not conveniently be ignorant here.
 

Simpleton

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Show me all these great pass rushers DEs that you are talking about then. You can't because there isn't any. I am not saying that they should not have addressed the position either, so don't play that silly game either. We could have taken Jernigan and Trai Turner there...who we liked.

You can call Mack a LB if you like, but he is really a DE. Mack is the much better player. Let's not conveniently be ignorant here.
Yea, I mean Mack is listed as a DE on the Raiders site, ESPN, Yahoo and any other site you want to use as a point of reference, so there's that.

Stephon Tuitt is technically a "DE", although a 3-4 DE and more of a 4-3 DT in our scheme but he's a better player than Lawrence also. Aaron Lynch would be a DE in our scheme, he's a 3-4 OLB for the Niners, he's at least right there with Lawrence, as well as Ealy.
 

Cowboysrock55

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Yea, I mean Mack is listed as a DE on the Raiders site, ESPN, Yahoo and any other site you want to use as a point of reference, so there's that.

Stephon Tuitt is technically a "DE", although a 3-4 DE and more of a 4-3 DT in our scheme but he's a better player than Lawrence also. Aaron Lynch would be a DE in our scheme, he's a 3-4 OLB for the Niners, he's at least right there with Lawrence, as well as Ealy.
Other then Mack, Lawrence is the only one in that group to register 8 sacks in a season. So I don't know that I'd put those guys "Right there" in terms of pass rush ability with Lawrence. Although Mack is obviously in a different stratosphere then any of those guys.
 

Simpleton

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Other then Mack, Lawrence is the only one in that group to register 8 sacks in a season. So I don't know that I'd put those guys "Right there" in terms of pass rush ability with Lawrence. Although Mack is obviously in a different stratosphere then any of those guys.
Great, and Tuitt had 6.5 sacks as a 3-4 DE while Lynch had 6 sacks as a rookie and 6.5 last year. Just because Lawrence had 8 in his second year doesn't mean he's a better player, especially when Lynch has more overall and Tuitt had nearly as many while playing a position where it's more difficult to rack up sack numbers.
 

Cowboysrock55

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Great, and Tuitt had 6.5 sacks as a 3-4 DE while Lynch had 6 sacks as a rookie and 6.5 last year. Just because Lawrence had 8 in his second year doesn't mean he's a better player, especially when Lynch has more overall and Tuitt had nearly as many while playing a position where it's more difficult to rack up sack numbers.
6.5 sacks as an OLBer in a 3-4 is actually not that great. It's generally easier to rack up sacks in that type of defense.

Tuitt has been good as a 3-4 DE but against he wouldn't be all that great as a 4-3 End, especially not as a pass rusher.
 

Jiggyfly

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Yes, I would say it was cute.

Lawrence is a fine player, definitely not "excellent" yet although he could end up there, and that's why I didn't outright bash the move, but I don't think you can say the trade was definitely a success either.

Two of the main guys I wanted at our pick in the 2nd that year were Kony Ealy (who is right there with Lawrence by the way) and Timmy Jernigan who has been a very good starting DT for the Ravens, and arguably a better player than Lawrence at this point.

Then of course you have whatever we would've done in the 3rd also.

This isn't so much an indictment on Lawrence as a player, he's definitely a nice piece to have, it's more of a statement on how the team doesn't seem to value picks and have been all too willing to just throw a 2nd or 3rd at a team in trade up when they see a shiny object they want without taking a step back and looking at who else could be available 15-20 picks later.
Lawrence has played in 11 games less than Ealy and has 1 less sack and lets not even mention who he is playing with, so I don't know if he is right there.

Have not paid a lot of attention to Jernigan so I can't comment but I don't see how moving up to get a plus pass rusher is getting cute but it is what it is.
 

Jiggyfly

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Show me all these great pass rushers DEs that you are talking about then. You can't because there isn't any. I am not saying that they should not have addressed the position either, so don't play that silly game either. We could have taken Jernigan and Trai Turner there...who we liked.

You can call Mack a LB if you like, but he is really a DE. Mack is the much better player. Let's not conveniently be ignorant here.
Um what?:unsure

That was my point there were not a lot of great DE's and they moved up to get what seems like one of the best available.
 

Jiggyfly

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Great, and Tuitt had 6.5 sacks as a 3-4 DE while Lynch had 6 sacks as a rookie and 6.5 last year. Just because Lawrence had 8 in his second year doesn't mean he's a better player, especially when Lynch has more overall and Tuitt had nearly as many while playing a position where it's more difficult to rack up sack numbers.
How many more games have those guys played than Lawrence?

And you do not know if Lynch would have held up at DE in the run game like Lawrence.

I am not saying they could not have gotten a comparable player later in the draft but as needy as we were and the production we have gotten is not being cute in my book.
 

Simpleton

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Lawrence has played in 11 games less than Ealy and has 1 less sack and lets not even mention who he is playing with, so I don't know if he is right there.

Have not paid a lot of attention to Jernigan so I can't comment but I don't see how moving up to get a plus pass rusher is getting cute but it is what it is.
You can't just throw out their sack numbers and go hey, see, Lawrence was a great pick!

Ealy has been at least as good as Lawrence so far in his career, and if you want to throw out stats, let's not forget the 3 sacks, interception and forced fumble he had in the Super Bowl last year which don't show up when you search for him on Yahoo or Pro Football Reference. As for Jernigan, he's a very good starter for the Ravens, probably a better player than any of the DE's we've discussed here.

Lawrence is a fine player as I said, my problem is more that they get enamored with a guy and just start throwing around high picks to get their guy without taking a step back and evaluating who else may be available.

They did it with Lawrence, they did it with Claiborne and they damn near did it with Lynch this past year if Jerry got his way. We all see how that last one has turned out so far.
 

BipolarFuk

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You would think that one more game and Chuck Haley in his prime is coming back.

It is Demarcus Lawrence.

Demarcus Lawrence.
 

Cowboysrock55

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Probably like our 3rd best defensive player. Not that that's saying a lot.
Everybody bitches that our pass rush sucks and now we are getting back a legit double digit sack potential guy. Seems like enough reason to be excited to me. I'd love for it to be JJ Watt coming back but for a midseason upgrade this isn't too bad.
 

boozeman

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Still think Lawrence benefitted from Hardy.

We will see.
 

Joe Fan

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Everybody bitches that our pass rush sucks and now we are getting back a legit double digit sack potential guy. Seems like enough reason to be excited to me. I'd love for it to be JJ Watt coming back but for a midseason upgrade this isn't too bad.
Personally I want to see more from Ryan Davis.
 
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