MLB Chatter Thread

D

Deuce

Guest
Like the signing as well and evidently the Rangers have been eyeing him since 2014. Wont have the pressure he had in San Diego so that should help. He can step right into the 3rd or 4th spot and hopefully give us a very good year.
There's going to be less pressure for the 3rd guy on a contender in a hitters park than the 2nd guy on a perennial loser in a pitchers park?

Im skeptical.
 

Rev

Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun
Staff member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
19,327
There's going to be less pressure for the 3rd guy on a contender in a hitters park than the 2nd guy on a perennial loser in a pitchers park?

Im skeptical.
I dont think its as bad as trying to carry a bad staff and a hitters park works both ways.
 

Jiggyfly

Banned
Joined
Apr 8, 2013
Messages
9,220
http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/story/...hot-stove-houston-astros-ken-rosenthal-111916

The Astros' evolving plan

The Astros’ trade for McCann and agreement with free-agent outfielder Josh Reddick has not precluded them from continuing their pursuit of Beltran, according to major-league sources.

The most likely current scenario is that Reddick will play right field, with George Springer moving to center and Nori Aoki and Jake Marisnick platooning in left.

Beltran certainly could take some of the Aoki/Marisnick at-bats, and the Astros would not use one of their catchers, McCann or Evan Gattis, as a DH every night. A full season of Yuli Gurriel at first and Alex Bregman at third should make the team’s lineup rather potent even without Beltran. But the team would benefit from Beltran’s leadership and presence, just it will benefit from McCann’s.

The other question with the Astros is whether they, too, will pursue a top starting pitcher in trade.

The team has parted with a considerable amount of young pitching in recent years; Jarred Cosart went to the Marlins; Josh Hader and Adrian Houser to the Brewers in the Carlos Gomez/Mike Fiers trade; Vince Velasquez, Mark Appel and others to the Phillies in the Ken Giles deal.

The Astros still believe they have enough of a prospect inventory to include pitching in a deal for a Sale or an Archer. If they’re not comfortable with the asking prices, they can always start the season with Dallas Keuchel and Lance McCullers at the top of their rotation, and hope that oft-injured free-agent acquisition Charlie Morton gives them 30 starts instead of 10.​
 

Carp

DCC 4Life
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
15,127
It still does play a big factor but a certain chunk of the voters are no longer automatically disqualifying a guy just because his team doesn't contend for the postseason. I agree with that mindset. I think it still should be a factor but I don't give it as much weight as someone who takes a more traditional approach I guess.

Mike Trout was pretty clearly the best player in the AL this year and deserves the award, IMO. If you take metrics that measure pure production like WAR, OPS+, and Weighted Runs Created, Trout is the best in all of those areas. It comes down to a philosophical approach but I lean more towards giving less weight to the team the guy is on if he is kind of a no doubt best player in his league like Trout is.
Trout did not play in any meaningful games after the middle of Jun. Much easier to stack stats up without the pressure of a pennant race. His war is very impressive, so without him they'd win 64 games...with him, 74.
 

E_D_Guapo

Brand New Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
3,158
Trout did not play in any meaningful games after the middle of Jun. Much easier to stack stats up without the pressure of a pennant race. His war is very impressive, so without him they'd win 64 games...with him, 74.
OK, so are you going to start defining which games are 'meaningful' then? What happens if you start breaking it down and Mookie Betts and Jose Altuve's numbers aren't so great in 'meaningful' games?

You going to start throwing in other random variables like lineup? Trout plays in a shit lineup where he has very little protection. Way less than Betts, Altuve, Donaldson, et al. Pitchers don't have to really pitch to him since he is really the only dangerous bat in that lineup besides an aging Pujols who is little more than a decent power hitter these days.

Who is the best player in the AL? Mike Trout. It really is just that simple. He is the best and most productive player. No need to overthink it or muddy the waters, IMO.
 

Carp

DCC 4Life
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
15,127
OK, so are you going to start defining which games are 'meaningful' then? What happens if you start breaking it down and Mookie Betts and Jose Altuve's numbers aren't so great in 'meaningful' games?

You going to start throwing in other random variables like lineup? Trout plays in a shit lineup where he has very little protection. Way less than Betts, Altuve, Donaldson, et al. Pitchers don't have to really pitch to him since he is really the only dangerous bat in that lineup besides an aging Pujols who is little more than a decent power hitter these days.

Who is the best player in the AL? Mike Trout. It really is just that simple. He is the best and most productive player. No need to overthink it or muddy the waters, IMO.
I am not throwing in a bunch of variables...what I am saying is that Trout did not play any meaningful games after mid-Jun...much easier to operate in those conditions. I won't argue that Trout is not the best player in the AL, but he certainly was not the most valuable. His statistics propelled the Angels to 74 wins.

If we are going to value the entirety of a players production, then Betts winning a Gold Glove, while Trout didn't, is another strong reason why I value Betts over him for this season.

Another compelling stat is that Trout had a .328 average with runners in scoring position, .306 with 2 outs and runners in scoring position. Betts had a .355 average with less than 2 outs...and a .404 average with 2 outs. That is clutch.
 

E_D_Guapo

Brand New Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
3,158
I am not throwing in a bunch of variables...what I am saying is that Trout did not play any meaningful games after mid-Jun...much easier to operate in those conditions. I won't argue that Trout is not the best player in the AL, but he certainly was not the most valuable. His statistics propelled the Angels to 74 wins.

If we are going to value the entirety of a players production, then Betts winning a Gold Glove, while Trout didn't, is another strong reason why I value Betts over him for this season.

Another compelling stat is that Trout had a .328 average with runners in scoring position, .306 with 2 outs and runners in scoring position. Betts had a .355 average with less than 2 outs...and a .404 average with 2 outs. That is clutch.
Trout's team won more games because of his play than any other player's team did theirs. He is the best and most valuable. That is the bottom line for me. The 'meaningful games' argument holds far less weight with me. It is a philosophical difference so either side can be argued but clearly the voters are starting to reject the notion that the MVP has to come from a playoff team otherwise Trout would not have won it. Here is one of many articles that I think make the case for Trout:


Boston Red Sox: Mookie was MVP caliber, Trout was MVP
by Jake Sauberman1 day agoFollow @jakesaub

Mike Trout wins the game of averages while Mookie Betts wins the game of aggregation. The reason why Trout deserves the MVP boils down to what the MVP means.

It may not be a popular sentiment among Red Sox Nation, but Mike Trout deserved the AL MVP over Mookie Betts. Let me first preface by saying that I’m as big of a Mookie fan as they come, and what he did in 2016 at age 23 was nothing short of remarkable. But it boils down to this: Betts was an MVP caliber player, Trout was the MVP.

When comparing the two young superstar outfielders on a purely numbers basis, even the most staunch pro-Betts supporters will have difficulty not favoring Trout. For the WAR junkies out there, Trout’s legendary 10.6 WAR is simply too much to ignore (not to discredit Betts’s otherworldly 9.6 WAR).

For those who think WAR is overused and overstated, don’t worry, because the argument doesn’t end there. Trout beat Betts handily in OBP (.441 to .363), slugging percentage (.550 to .534), OPS (.991 to .897), and OPS+ (174 to 131). Betts managed to lead most of the counting stats like hits, doubles, home runs, and RBIs; however, there’s a simple explanation for that.

For one, he spent the vast majority of the season hitting leadoff before a late-season move to the third spot; meanwhile, Trout was steadily hitting third in the Angels lineup. That resulted in Betts receiving 49 extra plate appearances that Trout didn’t get the chance to hit. And secondly, it’s hard to ignore the fact that Betts was hitting in baseball’s most potent offense, while Trout was essentially an island of production surrounded by an ocean of futility. The Red Sox outscored the Angels 878 to 717, and a disparity this big is much like crediting a pitcher with the highest run support in the league for all 22 of his wins (sorry Rick Porcello, no disrespect intended, you deserved the Cy Young). Sure it’s incredibly impressive, but it’s a lot easier to do when you’re surrounded by All-Star caliber teammates.

Trout wins the game of averages and Betts wins the game of aggregation, and the reason why I think that Trout deserves the MVP because of it boils down to the way I interpret what the Most Valuable Player award means.

The MVP is an individual award that is based on individual production, completely isolated from what the rest of the 24 players on the active roster do. I take a strict interpretation of the award name; the Most Valuable Player is the most valuable player. There’s no asterisk that says “only qualified if his respective team makes the playoffs.”
And that’s what I believe the main argument on the pro-Betts side of the coin to be. Mookie Betts deserves the AL MVP because his team made the playoffs and Trout’s didn’t.

I understand the argument, that Betts’s numbers, while not as prolific, hold more weight because they were accumulated under the pressures of a tight pennant race. But if we’re talking mental toughness here, doesn’t Trout deserve some credit as well?
More from BoSox Injection

For a competitive player, and there’s no doubt that both of the players in question are ultra-competitive, giving your best efforts day-in, day-out is second nature when the playoffs are in sight. But how about when your team is 14 games under .500, with no playoff hopes in sight? Coming to the ballpark with little purpose, Trout could have easily phoned the season in and coasted to the finish with stellar but not elite numbers.

Why shouldn’t we consider a team’s record when crowning the MVP? Because of the nature of the sport.

Baseball is a team sport, where each individual player is confined to their position and their spot in the lineup. This isn’t basketball where LeBron James can take the ball down every time, or football where Tom Brady is slinging every throw. Mike Trout and Mookie Betts get one position and one lineup spot and must wait their turn. Even the best baseball player of all-time can’t guide his team to the playoffs if the other 24 players on the roster aren’t doing their part.

In short, the argument for Trout is this: what more could he possibly have done? How could he have prevented the Angels’ 4.28 team ERA? Or their bullpen’s save percentage of 58%? Trout is a center fielder and a hitter, and in that capacity, he is the best in baseball. He is the deserving AL MVP.
 
Last edited:

Carp

DCC 4Life
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
15,127
There is no argument that can made for me to rate players from losing teams ahead of those from winning teams.

Don't worry...I am not going to ask for Dawson and Banks to return their MVP trophies they got while playing for the loveable losers.
 

E_D_Guapo

Brand New Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
3,158
There is no argument that can made for me to rate players from losing teams ahead of those from winning teams.

Don't worry...I am not going to ask for Dawson and Banks to return their MVP trophies they got while playing for the loveable losers.
It is an individual award and should be independent of the team's win total. Pretty simple but you obviously interpret it differently for some reason. You are not alone with the 'but...MEANINGFUL GAMES!!!' but the mindset is shifting, and rightly so IMO.

And it isn't as though it is always a player on a playoff team—or even a winning team—winning the award, as evidence by Banks in 1958 & 1959, Dawson in 1987, Ripken in 1991, ARod in 2003, and now Trout. There is a precedent.
 
Last edited:

Rev

Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun
Staff member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
19,327
Guess I have to make a trip to Cooperstown this year. Congrats Pudge.
 
Last edited:

Carp

DCC 4Life
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
15,127
It is an individual award and should be independent of the team's win total. Pretty simple but you obviously interpret it differently for some reason. You are not alone with the 'but...MEANINGFUL GAMES!!!' but the mindset is shifting, and rightly so IMO.

And it isn't as though it is always a player on a playoff team—or even a winning team—winning the award, as evidence by Banks in 1958 & 1959, Dawson in 1987, Ripken in 1991, ARod in 2003, and now Trout. There is a precedent.
Meaningful games...and oh, he is a Gold Glover this year as well.
 

E_D_Guapo

Brand New Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
3,158
Meaningful games...and oh, he is a Gold Glover this year as well.
You said it yourself:

I won't argue that Trout is not the best player in the AL
That should really be the end of the story.

but he certainly was not the most valuable.
Except that yes, he was. He had more value than any player in the AL. Not sure why it is necessary to separate the two. Best/most productive = most valuable, independent of any other factors associated with his team. You can throw Gold Glove out there but that award is heavily scrutinized for the subjectivity and complete lack of any clear criteria involved in the vote. And even still, defensive metrics play into WAR and even if Betts was a considerably better defender it still wasn't enough to make him more valuable than Trout. That is setting aside the fact that Trout plays CF, which is a more difficult and more important defensive position than RF.

There is no point in a circular argument. Trout won the award because he was the best player in his league. As it should be.
 
Last edited:

Carp

DCC 4Life
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
15,127
Mike Trout can be the offensive player of the year, but not MVP. His numbers and great season mean nothing...sure, getting the team up to 74 wins is a great accomplishment. Chuck Howley sends his congrats to Mike Trout.
 

E_D_Guapo

Brand New Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
3,158
Mike Trout can be the offensive player of the year, but not MVP. His numbers and great season mean nothing...sure, getting the team up to 74 wins is a great accomplishment. Chuck Howley sends his congrats to Mike Trout.
:lol

Mike Trout's team got 74 wins because they had horrid pitching and a shitty lineup outside of Mike Trout. Mookie Betts' team had quite possibly the best lineup in baseball and better pitching than the LAA.

What does Mookie Betts' great season mean now? It amounted to zero more wins in the postseason than Mike Trout's. Maybe they should just wait until after the World Series and pick the league MVP from each of those teams regardless of if there were more deserving candidates on inferior teams.

I think a lot of older voters share your mindset but it is pretty clear that it is not an absolute determining factor or Trout wouldn't even be in the discussion, let alone win the award.
 

NoDak

Hotlinking' sonofabitch
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
22,917
All this arguing over Trout and Betts for MVP is silly.



We all know the real MVP is Brian Dozier.
 

E_D_Guapo

Brand New Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
3,158
Sources: Rangers prospects questioned for allegedly sexually hazing underage teammate
Jeff Passan
Yahoo SportsNov 21, 2016, 3:00 PM

Eight Texas Rangers prospects were questioned by police in the Dominican Republic after a video showed a group of players sexually assaulting an underage teammate in a hazing incident that targeted players new to the team’s Dominican complex, sources familiar with the case told Yahoo Sports.

While prosecutors in the Dominican Republic have yet to press charges for the alleged assault, they told the court they intend to charge at least four players who held down a teammate and masturbated him, sources told Yahoo Sports.

Among those expected to be charged are the younger brother of Rangers second baseman Rougned Odor, also named Rougned, and Yohel Pozo, a top catching prospect, both 19 years old. The players facing potential charges have been told not to leave the country, according to sources.

Video of the alleged assault, which took place toward the end of October, was captured and posted on Snapchat, according to sources. A 10-second clip of video, obtained by Yahoo Sports, shows the alleged victim in a Rangers shirt and Rangers shorts laying on a bed with his arms held behind his back and his legs pinned down. At least four men are seen in addition to the alleged victim, whose penis is exposed, grabbed and maneuvered underneath a hand towel. All of the men in the video, including the alleged victim, are seen laughing.

The alleged assault was one of a number of hazing incidents of Venezuelan and Colombian players, some of whom were younger than 18, according to sources. More tenured players shaved the head of at least one new player and forced at least one other to take his clothes off, and sources said police are investigating at least one more allegation of forced masturbation.

The players were questioned around Nov. 9 after the Rangers informed Dominican police of the alleged incident at their complex in Boca Chica, D.R., where their two Dominican Summer League teams play and players from across Latin America train. The Rangers have been one of the most successful teams in Latin America over the past decade, grooming some of their franchise cornerstones at the complex.

The Rangers reported the alleged assault immediately after a staff member in the Dominican Republic was told of it by a player not involved, and Major League Baseball opened an investigation into the alleged assault, as Fox Sports first reported late last week. MLB, which placed the four players facing potential charges on administrative leave, declined comment.

In a statement to Yahoo Sports, the Rangers said: “The Texas Rangers became aware of an incident at our Academy in the Dominican Republic and we acted promptly to open an investigation. We have reported the incident and are cooperating fully with Major League Baseball and the authorities in the Dominican Republic. With this being an ongoing investigation, we will have no further comment at this time.”
----------------------------------------------------------------
:wtf

Gayest. Hazing. Ever.
 

Rev

Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun
Staff member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
19,327
Yep. Just dumb. Sad because it involves our top catching prospect. Sure hope it doesnt derail his career and he can learn from this idiocy.
 
Top Bottom